Best Blu-ray Deals

Black Friday Week is Live, $3.99 Blu-ray Movies »
Top deals | Price drops  
 All countries United States United Kingdom Canada Germany France Spain Italy Japan
Rain Man (Blu-ray)
$3.99
 
Person of Interest: The Complete Third Season (Blu-ray)
$14.99
 
Rise of the Planet of the Apes (Blu-ray)
$3.99
 
X-Men: Days of Future Past (Blu-ray)
$9.99
 
X-Men: First Class (Blu-ray)
$3.99
 
Lone Survivor (Blu-ray)
$7.99
 
The Avengers (Blu-ray)
$9.99
 
The Princess Bride (Blu-ray)
$3.99
21 hrs ago
Star Trek: The Next Generation, Season 1 (Blu-ray)
$19.99
 
A Good Day to Die Hard (Blu-ray)
$3.99
 
House of Cards: The Complete Second Season (Blu-ray)
$14.96
 
John Adams (Blu-ray)
$14.99
9 hrs ago
Prometheus (Blu-ray)
$3.99
 

Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Audio > Audio Theory and Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-18-2012, 03:10 PM   #1
AlanUK AlanUK is offline
Active Member
 
AlanUK's Avatar
 
Nov 2011
218
282
United Kingdom dolby true-hd or dts-hd master audio ?

which is better ?

i seem to find that dts-hd master audio is better, but i was wondering what the more technical people on here think ?
TV ~ LG 50PZ570T 50 inch 3D / RECEIVER ~ Denon AVX2000 3D 7.1 CH / SPEAKERS ~ Canton Movie 125 MX / BLU-RAY ~ Panasonic DMP-BDT210 3D / DVD ~ Samsung HD850 Multi Region / VCR ~ Panasonic NV-FJ630 / GAMING SYSTEMS ~ X360, PS3 PS4, WiiU, 3DS, PC / Sky & Freeview HD
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2012, 05:08 PM   #2
Villiam Hayes Villiam Hayes is offline
Blu-ray Champion
 
Villiam Hayes's Avatar
 
Dec 2011
Norn Iron
15
455
5
20
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanUK View Post
which is better ?

i seem to find that dts-hd master audio is better, but i was wondering what the more technical people on here think ?
This has been discussed plenty on this site,lossless is lossless but what I would say is that I see you own an onkyo receiver....it automatically sets the Dolby true track on to night time mode so that would be a down side to anything you may have listened to...if of course you didn't realise that.
Film=Priority,Packaging=Not really bothered.

I spent a lot of money on booze,bird's and fast cars.
The rest I just squandered...............George Best.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2012, 08:13 PM   #3
AlanUK AlanUK is offline
Active Member
 
AlanUK's Avatar
 
Nov 2011
218
282
Default

Oh yes i know about the Late Night function & i always turn it off when i have a True-HD disc playing.

I did have a look for a thread about the differences but couldn't find one, i was only asking because when there were only dvd's the DTS sound was better than the Dolby Digital, so there was a difference between those two & i wondered if this was the same for blu-ray, because you always had a choice on dvd's well sometimes you got a choice but on blu-ray you do not, it is either DTS-HD or True-HD ok sometimes you have PCM to choose as well, i just wondered thats all.
TV ~ LG 50PZ570T 50 inch 3D / RECEIVER ~ Denon AVX2000 3D 7.1 CH / SPEAKERS ~ Canton Movie 125 MX / BLU-RAY ~ Panasonic DMP-BDT210 3D / DVD ~ Samsung HD850 Multi Region / VCR ~ Panasonic NV-FJ630 / GAMING SYSTEMS ~ X360, PS3 PS4, WiiU, 3DS, PC / Sky & Freeview HD
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2012, 09:40 PM   #4
atexp80 atexp80 is online now
Moderator
 
atexp80's Avatar
 
Sep 2009
Central Coast, NSW, Australia
198
1514
56
12
68
Default

The short version: lossless is lossless is lossless. Each track should be identical to the studio master if handled correctly.

What people often perceive as DTS-HD Master Audio being better is simply the fact that Dolby TrueHD usually has a dialnorm of -4dB, meaning that the entire track is of a lower volume. Hence if you always set your receiver at the same level the Dolby TrueHD track would sound quieter and therefore less powerful. Increasing the volume by 4dB should get transparency between the two tracks.

Personally though I prefer DTS-HD Master Audio. There are a number of reasons but suffice to say the main ones are the efficiency of the codec and the inclusion of the DTS core track within the container. DTS-HD MA tracks have, based on BDInfo scans, a tendency to seem to take up less space because of the encoding process freeing up valuable disc space to use for higher video bit rates, more languages or additional features. The inclusion of the DTS legacy track also means that those without the ability to decode lossless audio get a higher quality legacy track than the standard Dolby Digital track at the usual 640kbps. That's of no consequence to me but certainly beneficial for others.

So my preference is DTS-HD Master Audio for the above reasons but ultimately none of the three options should be better than the other. A 48kHz, 24-bit audio track via PCM, Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio should be identical.

As long as a lossless option is available then I'm happy.
LATEST FOR SALE ITEMS:
Epic (US BD/DVD/UV) $10. New/sealed. Price includes shipping anywhere in Australia!

--| Sale/Trade thread - Steels & regular Blus! ...big update June 8! |--
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2012, 09:45 PM   #5
solarrdadd solarrdadd is offline
Blu-ray Champion
 
solarrdadd's Avatar
 
Jul 2008
Alexandria, VA
254
862
4
34
222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atexp80 View Post
The short version: lossless is lossless is lossless. Each track should be identical to the studio master if handled correctly.

What people often perceive as DTS-HD Master Audio being better is simply the fact that Dolby TrueHD usually has a dialnorm of -4dB, meaning that the entire track is of a lower volume. Hence if you always set your receiver at the same level the Dolby TrueHD track would sound quieter and therefore less powerful. Increasing the volume by 4dB should get transparency between the two tracks.

Personally though I prefer DTS-HD Master Audio. There are a number of reasons but suffice to say the main ones are the efficiency of the codec and the inclusion of the DTS core track within the container. DTS-HD MA tracks have, based on BDInfo scans, a tendency to seem to take up less space because of the encoding process freeing up valuable disc space to use for higher video bit rates, more languages or additional features. The inclusion of the DTS legacy track also means that those without the ability to decode lossless audio get a higher quality legacy track than the standard Dolby Digital track at the usual 640kbps. That's of no consequence to me but certainly beneficial for others.

So my preference is DTS-HD Master Audio for the above reasons but ultimately none of the three options should be better than the other. A 48kHz, 24-bit audio track via PCM, Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio should be identical.

As long as a lossless option is available then I'm happy.

wow, truthfully, i don't think there is anything left to say after that!
55" Sony SXRD KDS-A552000 1080P
PS3 Slim & XBOX 360 Elite, Wii, iPhone5 64gb
iPad4 64gb, AppleTV-hdmi, NAS-1tb, Oppo BDP-105D, 105, 93 & 83 players
Onkyo PR-SC5507P Pre/Pro; TX-NR525 Harmony 1, SB-Touch, Axiom Spkrs M80v3, VP180v3, QS8v3, QS4v3 M2v3, Front 3 Bi-Wired! Emotiva XPA-5, UPA-2, UPA-200, & mini-x Amps, XDA-1DAC, X-Ref 12 DSP Sub & Ultra Subs 12 Polk Audio SDA-2, Monitor 10 & Monitor 5Jr speakers
NY GIANTS!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2012, 11:18 PM   #6
Villiam Hayes Villiam Hayes is offline
Blu-ray Champion
 
Villiam Hayes's Avatar
 
Dec 2011
Norn Iron
15
455
5
20
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanUK View Post
Oh yes i know about the Late Night function & i always turn it off when i have a True-HD disc playing.

I did have a look for a thread about the differences but couldn't find one, i was only asking because when there were only dvd's the DTS sound was better than the Dolby Digital, so there was a difference between those two & i wondered if this was the same for blu-ray, because you always had a choice on dvd's well sometimes you got a choice but on blu-ray you do not, it is either DTS-HD or True-HD ok sometimes you have PCM to choose as well, i just wondered thats all.
Member atexp80 has explained exactly how the lossless audio codecs work above but in direct question to why dts sounded better than dolby digital in the DVD era is because it simply was better,more bit rates,DD 48KHz compared to the dts track at up to 96 KHz...dts provides a fuller surround sound experience .
Film=Priority,Packaging=Not really bothered.

I spent a lot of money on booze,bird's and fast cars.
The rest I just squandered...............George Best.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 07:52 PM   #7
Tech-UK Tech-UK is offline
Blu-ray Samurai
 
Tech-UK's Avatar
 
Sep 2010
UK
81
349
22
Default

There is no difference in sound quality between Lossy Dolby Digital @ 640kbps and DTS @ 1.5Mbps, again its just a case of volume matching. Atexp do you have any links to support your claim of DTS being more efficient? Any BDinfo scans of which a title has both TrueHD and MA tracks?
Selling my Disneynature collection. Click HERE.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 08:24 PM   #8
AlanUK AlanUK is offline
Active Member
 
AlanUK's Avatar
 
Nov 2011
218
282
Default

That is what i wanted to know, thanks for the clarification
TV ~ LG 50PZ570T 50 inch 3D / RECEIVER ~ Denon AVX2000 3D 7.1 CH / SPEAKERS ~ Canton Movie 125 MX / BLU-RAY ~ Panasonic DMP-BDT210 3D / DVD ~ Samsung HD850 Multi Region / VCR ~ Panasonic NV-FJ630 / GAMING SYSTEMS ~ X360, PS3 PS4, WiiU, 3DS, PC / Sky & Freeview HD
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 10:36 PM   #9
BIslander BIslander is offline
Blu-ray Samurai
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Sep 2008
Bainbridge Island, WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Villiam Hayes View Post
This has been discussed plenty on this site,lossless is lossless but what I would say is that I see you own an onkyo receiver....it automatically sets the Dolby true track on to night time mode so that would be a down side to anything you may have listened to...if of course you didn't realise that.
Onkyos set DRC to Auto, which is not the same as setting it to On. Auto means DRC will be engaged when the disc tells the receiver to do so. Since there's only one disc known to do that (the original pressings of Iron Man), Auto actually means Off with that one exception.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 10:57 PM   #10
BIslander BIslander is offline
Blu-ray Samurai
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Sep 2008
Bainbridge Island, WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Villiam Hayes View Post
Member atexp80 has explained exactly how the lossless audio codecs work above but in direct question to why dts sounded better than dolby digital in the DVD era is because it simply was better,more bit rates,DD 48KHz compared to the dts track at up to 96 KHz...dts provides a fuller surround sound experience .
Pardon, but that's a lot of marketing malarkey.

Yes, it is true that lossy DD 5.1 and DTS are different since they use different algorithms to decide what to exclude. But, it is doubtful that anyone could actually hear a difference in a properly designed blind test. As previously noted, loudness is the most likely explanation for the commonly perceived preference for DTS - the same soundtrack encoded both ways will be louder with DTS because Dolby employs dialnorm. Studies show most people equate louder with better.

As for the three other DTS advantages you mention:
>Bitrate differences are not meaningful because Dolby's approach is more efficient than the one used by DTS.
>Nearly all movies are mastered at 48kHz.
>And the fullness of the surround experience comes from the way a movie is mixed, not the data compression codec used to save space on a disc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 11:11 PM   #11
BIslander BIslander is offline
Blu-ray Samurai
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Sep 2008
Bainbridge Island, WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanUK View Post
which is better ?

i seem to find that dts-hd master audio is better, but i was wondering what the more technical people on here think ?
I'm curious - have you compared the same soundtrack using the two different lossless codecs? If not, you are actually expressing a preference for specific soundtracks rather than the codecs used to zip them up for storage on a disc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 12:00 AM   #12
atexp80 atexp80 is online now
Moderator
 
atexp80's Avatar
 
Sep 2009
Central Coast, NSW, Australia
198
1514
56
12
68
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech-UK View Post
There is no difference in sound quality between Lossy Dolby Digital @ 640kbps and DTS @ 1.5Mbps, again its just a case of volume matching. Atexp do you have any links to support your claim of DTS being more efficient? Any BDinfo scans of which a title has both TrueHD and MA tracks?
I'm afraid I don't at the moment as my PC is out of action for the time being. There are a few titles I own and I'm quite certain the DTS-HD MA track was a smaller file size. I seem to recall the local (AU) release of Knowing having a smaller file size for the DTS-HD MA track to the Dolby TrueHD track included. I'd be happy to check once I've got the PC operational again.

As for the Dolby Digital to DTS comparison, well for me there was one area I personally found DTS to be superior in and that was the handling of the upper frequencies. On particularly busy passages of soundtracks Dolby Digital tracks often seemed prone to losing some definition and took on some of the washy quality, similar to what you might find with low bitrate MP3s. Naturally it wasn't as bad as what you would hear on MP3s but on occasion elements of a soundtrack like strings or cymbals would take on that washy, poorly defined quality. As a drummer the cymbals would be something I'd really notice but any sustained high-end frequencies would be more susceptible.

Barring that I agree that other aspects of the encoding result in a comparable reproduction of the audio.
LATEST FOR SALE ITEMS:
Epic (US BD/DVD/UV) $10. New/sealed. Price includes shipping anywhere in Australia!

--| Sale/Trade thread - Steels & regular Blus! ...big update June 8! |--

Last edited by atexp80; 08-20-2012 at 12:02 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 10:12 AM   #13
Tech-UK Tech-UK is offline
Blu-ray Samurai
 
Tech-UK's Avatar
 
Sep 2010
UK
81
349
22
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atexp80 View Post
I'm afraid I don't at the moment as my PC is out of action for the time being. There are a few titles I own and I'm quite certain the DTS-HD MA track was a smaller file size. I seem to recall the local (AU) release of Knowing having a smaller file size for the DTS-HD MA track to the Dolby TrueHD track included. I'd be happy to check once I've got the PC operational again.
No problem .

Quote:
Originally Posted by atexp80 View Post
As for the Dolby Digital to DTS comparison, well for me there was one area I personally found DTS to be superior in and that was the handling of the upper frequencies. On particularly busy passages of soundtracks Dolby Digital tracks often seemed prone to losing some definition and took on some of the washy quality, similar to what you might find with low bitrate MP3s. Naturally it wasn't as bad as what you would hear on MP3s but on occasion elements of a soundtrack like strings or cymbals would take on that washy, poorly defined quality. As a drummer the cymbals would be something I'd really notice but any sustained high-end frequencies would be more susceptible.

Barring that I agree that other aspects of the encoding result in a comparable reproduction of the audio.
Thats interesting! Is that between DD at 640kbps compared to DTS at 1.5Mbps. Using the same source/mix?
Selling my Disneynature collection. Click HERE.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 10:38 AM   #14
atexp80 atexp80 is online now
Moderator
 
atexp80's Avatar
 
Sep 2009
Central Coast, NSW, Australia
198
1514
56
12
68
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech-UK View Post
Thats interesting! Is that between DD at 640kbps compared to DTS at 1.5Mbps. Using the same source/mix?
Yeah. A/B'ing tracks on DVDs that feature both reveals that issue on occasion. More often than not there is transparency between the two of them with only the volume being the difference but every so often there would be an instance where you'd hear compression issues on the high end.
LATEST FOR SALE ITEMS:
Epic (US BD/DVD/UV) $10. New/sealed. Price includes shipping anywhere in Australia!

--| Sale/Trade thread - Steels & regular Blus! ...big update June 8! |--
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 08:24 PM   #15
AlanUK AlanUK is offline
Active Member
 
AlanUK's Avatar
 
Nov 2011
218
282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
I'm curious - have you compared the same soundtrack using the two different lossless codecs? If not, you are actually expressing a preference for specific soundtracks rather than the codecs used to zip them up for storage on a disc.
Maybe Hmmm it could also well be the lower volume of the Dolby THD & maybe just thinking it is better because of the dvd era when DTS was better than DD.
TV ~ LG 50PZ570T 50 inch 3D / RECEIVER ~ Denon AVX2000 3D 7.1 CH / SPEAKERS ~ Canton Movie 125 MX / BLU-RAY ~ Panasonic DMP-BDT210 3D / DVD ~ Samsung HD850 Multi Region / VCR ~ Panasonic NV-FJ630 / GAMING SYSTEMS ~ X360, PS3 PS4, WiiU, 3DS, PC / Sky & Freeview HD
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 12:55 AM   #16
crackinhedz crackinhedz is offline
Super Moderator
 
crackinhedz's Avatar
 
Feb 2007
Lynchburg,VA
10
8
19
Default

me personally, I think once you can mentally get past trying to look for any differences you will enjoy the audio much more. If the audio track sucks, its not because its dolby or dts.

Garbage in = Garbage out.

It took me a long time to stop comparing audio codecs, dts vs dolby, lossless vs lossy etc...but once you do, you start to enjoy it more.

Kinda like looking for dead pixel's. Sure it aggravates you to no end, but from 15 feet away who cares.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 01:17 AM   #17
Johnny Vinyl Johnny Vinyl is online now
Moderator
 
Johnny Vinyl's Avatar
 
Jul 2007
At the crossroad of Analogue Dr & 2CH Ave
18
187
1
3
8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crackinhedz View Post
me personally, I think once you can mentally get past trying to look for any differences you will enjoy the audio much more. If the audio track sucks, its not because its dolby or dts.

Garbage in = Garbage out.

It took me a long time to stop comparing audio codecs, dts vs dolby, lossless vs lossy etc...but once you do, you start to enjoy it more.

Kinda like looking for dead pixel's. Sure it aggravates you to no end, but from 15 feet away who cares.
Well said. I have concert BD's that run the gamet of codecs, but I don't really care as I bought the discs for the content (music) not the codec. Hell, I still buy concert DVD's because they're not available on Blu-ray. None of those come with HD codecs, but I enjoy them just as much.
John - I love the smell of vinyl in the morning!
My personal motto: "Live Life! Leave A Legacy!"
I reserve the right to post as a member. When I post as a Moderator I will select a color depending on my mood!
AudioQuest - Genesis - Harman/Kardon - Marantz Reference - Mogami - Nitty Gritty -- Valab/King
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 02:10 AM   #18
brian9229 brian9229 is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
brian9229's Avatar
 
Jun 2012
Burlington, Vermont Steelbooks-133
94
610
62
9
40
Default

Although i do enjoy both i find dts to be alot brighter and clearer and dolby to be a touch muddier, but not to the point of being any kind of distraction or anything. And i do also prefer to watch Dolby titles at night because i can utilize my players dynamic range control to lower the boom on dolby tracks(i have 4 kids)which i cant do on dts tracks. I dont think id say one is better than the other i think they both sound incredible with each one having its own distinct attributes. If i wanted to show off my system though id load up a show with a dts track because i do love the perfect balance of high frequencies over the lows which my ears cant find on most dolby tracks.
Samsung Smart LED 3DTV 120hz Model - un40d6420
Panasonic 3D Bluray player Model - DMP-BDT320(Multiregion)
Magnavox Bluray player Model - NB530MGX
Xbox 360 4gb
Monster Powercentre model - HT700
Samsung Active 3D glasses model - SSG-3050GB x
For Trade:Captain America TWS Bestbuy excl steelbook/sealed PM if interested

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 12:40 PM   #19
Tech-UK Tech-UK is offline
Blu-ray Samurai
 
Tech-UK's Avatar
 
Sep 2010
UK
81
349
22
Default

Have you heard/own titles such as; Super 8, Transformers DOTM, Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol? All TrueHD tracks that are reference. If not, then I would recommend trying them out.
Selling my Disneynature collection. Click HERE.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 04:39 PM   #20
brian9229 brian9229 is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
brian9229's Avatar
 
Jun 2012
Burlington, Vermont Steelbooks-133
94
610
62
9
40
Default

I have Mission Impossible, and yeah it sounds great. I find the dolby track on The Matrix trilogy to be stand out as well, imo.
Samsung Smart LED 3DTV 120hz Model - un40d6420
Panasonic 3D Bluray player Model - DMP-BDT320(Multiregion)
Magnavox Bluray player Model - NB530MGX
Xbox 360 4gb
Monster Powercentre model - HT700
Samsung Active 3D glasses model - SSG-3050GB x
For Trade:Captain America TWS Bestbuy excl steelbook/sealed PM if interested

  Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Audio > Audio Theory and Discussion


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:55 AM.