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Old 10-29-2007, 06:38 PM   #1
Frode Frode is offline
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Default PS3 and BTB/WTW redux

I just recently upgraded my display and cabling to 1080p with HDMI, and have been re-reading the threads trying to figure out what settings are best. Things didn't quite add up however. After doing my own experimentation, it turns out that if you use RGB, the PS3 will NOT pass BTB or WTW. It doesn't matter if you use RGB Full or Limited - it will clip. All that RGB full does is scale/map 16-235 to 0-255 for BDs/DVD. It might be more beneficial for gaming/XMB - the jury's out on that for now until I can generate some test patterns that use the XMB only. Worst case you might need to switch between calibration presets.

The only way to get proper BTB/WTW is to force Y/Pb/Pr output (BD/DVD options) and to turn super-white ON (Display options). Anything else will clip the signal. Don't forget to recalibrate after you change the settings.

You can easily see if BTB is being passed by inserting a Sony BD, and typing 7669 on the remote from the disc menu. Hit the pause button so it won't switch to the next pattern. Boost the brightness setting on your TV quite high so it's easy to see BTB - you'll have three smaller black bars in the bottom bar. You can switch between component and RGB by hitting triangle, and entering the AV settings. Notice how one of the three bars disappears if you choose anything other than Y/Pb/Pr and super white - that's the clipping in effect.
/frode
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Old 11-03-2007, 05:41 PM   #2
Deciazulado Deciazulado is offline
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Well if you properly adjust black to 0 you can't have negative blacks unless you create a black hole and if you properly adjust white to 100% you can't go beyond 100. Of course you can adjust white to about 80% but then you'd have 80% of the brightness and contrast of your display for a signal that is not Yuv anymore but RGB where white should be represented as 100
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Old 11-04-2007, 04:40 PM   #3
HeavyHitter HeavyHitter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frode View Post
I just recently upgraded my display and cabling to 1080p with HDMI, and have been re-reading the threads trying to figure out what settings are best. Things didn't quite add up however. After doing my own experimentation, it turns out that if you use RGB, the PS3 will NOT pass BTB or WTW. It doesn't matter if you use RGB Full or Limited - it will clip. All that RGB full does is scale/map 16-235 to 0-255 for BDs/DVD. It might be more beneficial for gaming/XMB - the jury's out on that for now until I can generate some test patterns that use the XMB only. Worst case you might need to switch between calibration presets.

The only way to get proper BTB/WTW is to force Y/Pb/Pr output (BD/DVD options) and to turn super-white ON (Display options). Anything else will clip the signal. Don't forget to recalibrate after you change the settings.

You can easily see if BTB is being passed by inserting a Sony BD, and typing 7669 on the remote from the disc menu. Hit the pause button so it won't switch to the next pattern. Boost the brightness setting on your TV quite high so it's easy to see BTB - you'll have three smaller black bars in the bottom bar. You can switch between component and RGB by hitting triangle, and entering the AV settings. Notice how one of the three bars disappears if you choose anything other than Y/Pb/Pr and super white - that's the clipping in effect.
I just bought a new display (Sony SXRD A3000). I'm using the PS3 over HDMI (1080/24p). I was using RGB at full - and it would pass blacker than black, but I had to drastically adjust brightness which I knew didn't seem right.

So, I'm using Y/Pb/Pr now - however, it doesn't pass BTB. But, I need to turn on Super White - hopefully that will do the trick.
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Old 11-04-2007, 07:44 PM   #4
Frode Frode is offline
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Deci - didn't we already have this discussion? If you calibrate a display to clip BTB and it properly emulates a CRT like it's supposed to, it'll still show BTB information in certain scenes, as well as affect all the image processing being done as a result of displaying the image. If you clip at the player that information never reaches the display to begin with. I suggest you go back and re-read those threads I linked to back when if it's still confusing.
/frode
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Old 11-04-2007, 08:12 PM   #5
gand41f gand41f is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frode View Post
You can easily see if BTB is being passed by inserting a Sony BD, and typing 7669 on the remote from the disc menu. Hit the pause button so it won't switch to the next pattern. Boost the brightness setting on your TV quite high so it's easy to see BTB - you'll have three smaller black bars in the bottom bar. You can switch between component and RGB by hitting triangle, and entering the AV settings. Notice how one of the three bars disappears if you choose anything other than Y/Pb/Pr and super white - that's the clipping in effect.
I can confirm this as well. Sony XDL-46XBR4 connected via HDMI. The three smaller black bars are under the big red solid bar, right? I did change the TV's RGB Dynamic Range (in Video Options in XMB) from Auto to Full to no avail.

If I remember correctly, I don't think anyone claimed that PS3 ever passed BTB/WTW in RGB though.

enjoy
gandalf
"Please bore someone else with your questions." - The Devil Wears Prada
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Old 11-04-2007, 08:38 PM   #6
Frode Frode is offline
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Quote:
If I remember correctly, I don't think anyone claimed that PS3 ever passed BTB/WTW in RGB though.
I think I remember some doing it when the firmware update adding it first came out.. What I have seen a lot of people do, is recommend the Full RGB option regardless, when in actuality you'll want to use component+super white if you want a correct treatment of the video chain.

Or to put it like this, even though the difference between clipping/not-clipping BTB/WTW at the source is subtle, as a videophile I sleep better knowing that it's set and calibrated correctly .
/frode

Last edited by Frode; 11-04-2007 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 11-04-2007, 10:15 PM   #7
Clark Kent Clark Kent is offline
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Very simple instructions for your PS3 to be calibrated correctly with most displays for dvd playback...

1. Choose Y/Pb/Pr

2. Turn Superwhite On

3. Set it to RGB Limited
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Old 11-04-2007, 10:43 PM   #8
Deciazulado Deciazulado is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frode View Post
Deci - didn't we already have this discussion? If you calibrate a display to clip BTB and it properly emulates a CRT like it's supposed to, it'll still show BTB information in certain scenes, as well as affect all the image processing being done as a result of displaying the image. If you clip at the player that information never reaches the display to begin with. I suggest you go back and re-read those threads I linked to back when if it's still confusing.
I'll explain again:

You know the lighter than black pluge bar? Which one are you using to calibrate a 4% one, a 2.7% one (2.5 IRE setup) or a 2% one?

lets use the lighter one 4%. At gamma 2.2*, 4% black is 1190 times darker that 100% white (level 235 white). Do you think you can see a black that's 1200 times darker than a white? Can you see blacks darker than that too? Below black should be, well, below black. o/~ Black is black, I want my baby back. Oh what can I dooo. When I'm feeling blu ~\o






*(and if you have a CRT emulation, or adjust for dark surround viewing conditions slightly (2.35 gamma), 4% black is 1928 times darker than white. 2000:1 black.)
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