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Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Audio > Subwoofers


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Old 09-21-2016, 02:12 PM   #1
Mudfrog Mudfrog is offline
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Default Adding a second subwoofer

So I'm thinking about adding a second subwoofer to help out my current one. I know my BIC F12 isn't the best but it does a pretty good job. I'm thinking about adding a second to help ease it's load as it does seem to struggle in some movies. So the question is, should I go with another F12 or should I go for a different model? Aside from looks, is there a benefit to matching the subs?
Main HT
Speakers: SVS Prime Center, Bookshelves, Satellites, SVS PB-2000
Receiver: Denon X4300H
Video: BenQ HT2050, Silver Ticket 100" White, Darbee DVP 5000S
HTPC: Intel Core i3-3220, 8GB DDR3 1600, 750ti 2GB, 7TB of HDD's, LG Bluray
Bluray: Pioneer BDP-150
Gaming: HTPC, XBOX One
Other: DirecTV, Sennheiser RS170, APC C25B Power Filter
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Old 09-22-2016, 06:36 PM   #2
bakntim bakntim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudfrog View Post
So I'm thinking about adding a second subwoofer to help out my current one. I know my BIC F12 isn't the best but it does a pretty good job. I'm thinking about adding a second to help ease it's load as it does seem to struggle in some movies. So the question is, should I go with another F12 or should I go for a different model? Aside from looks, is there a benefit to matching the subs?

I started with a single BIC Acoustech H-100. Fantastic sub for my needs. Then added a second one. If your current sub is struggling, adding another of the same struggling sub I don't think will fix your problem. The thing with multiple subs I tell everyone is that it is not about more bass, it's about better bass. Smoother, more even, that helps eliminate any localization for your listening space. The larger the room the more you will benefit from multiple subs. Matching them, as with speakers, is always a good idea but I believe from my readings there is a bit more flexibility with using different model subwoofers as low frequency differences between them are not as discernible as it would be with mismatched main speakers. Or another option would be to just get a better quality single subwoofer that would be able to handle whatever is making your current sub struggle. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 09-22-2016, 07:32 PM   #3
ImPulSive ImPulSive is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudfrog View Post
So I'm thinking about adding a second subwoofer to help out my current one. I know my BIC F12 isn't the best but it does a pretty good job. I'm thinking about adding a second to help ease it's load as it does seem to struggle in some movies. So the question is, should I go with another F12 or should I go for a different model? Aside from looks, is there a benefit to matching the subs?
Define struggling? Not loud enough? Cannot reach the lower frequencies for stuff like explosions? What does struggling mean to you? Need to identify the problem before a solution can be sought which includes whether or not a second sub of the same will help. A second identical sub will help fill up the room and make it louder, more blended and uniform, but you will not get any extra low end Hz, just a boost in loudness for the same Hz you have now.

How loud do you want it? Is your room a simple 4 walls and a door? Or is your room more complex, open on one end to rest of your place? How big is your room, width x length x height? Cubic volume is important, that is how much space your sub needs to pressurize. If it is underwhelming then you may not have enough power to properly pressurize the volume of that space.

Have you done the subwoofer crawl? I doubt it since you appear to have placed the sub in the corner and angled it towards your seating position I assume, which might be what you think is the best, but perhaps it is not. Sub frequencies are omni-directional, no need to point at the listening location like you should for main speakers with tweeters, those higher frequencies are very directional. Do the crawl and perhaps a new location will be a big difference.

Is your preference movies or music? Movies most likely means that you will want a ported sub for those extra couple of hertz and rumble for explosions, etc. Music is typically a sealed sub for tighter, cleaner bass.

There are a lot of variables here before your question can be answered. Initial guess, get something different than what you have now, but what that different is all depends on the above questions and budget. Something from SVS or Power Sound Audio are good starting points but there are many options out there.
T: Marantz AV8801, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2 x2, Mirage OMD-C2, Def Tech BP8B x2, Pro Monitor 1000 x6, SuperCube 2000 x2, SVS PB-2000 x2, Carada Precision 126 inch 1.78 BW, JVC DLA-RS600U PJ (2D/3D), Oppo UDP-203, PS3, APC H15, CyberPower CP1350PFCLCD
FR: Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen2, XPA-3 Gen2, Mirage OMD-C2 OMD-28 L/R OMD-15 Surrounds (in Rosewood), SVS SB2000 x2 (Piano Black), Kuro Elite 50in, Rega RP1 TT, Jolida JD9 MKII (upgraded), Comcast X1 DVR, Panasonic BD, Mac Mini, PS3, APC H15
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Old 09-23-2016, 01:47 PM   #4
Mudfrog Mudfrog is offline
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Thanks for the feedback guys. To answer some of your questions..

It's a fairly large room, I'll measure when I get home but if I had to guess I'd say it's roughly 16 x 25? I may be off, never measured it before. It's a bi-level house so on the side of the room is an empty space with steps.

My definition of struggling would be two fold, not able to play a low enough Hz which I do understand it is a limitation of the sub and adding a second identical sub will not help. The other part is the sub can be underwhelming. There have been times I actually get up and look behind the sub to ensure it's actually turned on. Other times I'm in shock of what the sub is capable of doing. A lot of it is dependent on the movie, but I feel underwhelmed more often than surprised. My thoughts about adding a second sub was to get more "uummph" and overall room filling bass, not just for me but for my whole family. My understanding of the subwoofer crawl is that you basically set it up for the main listening spot, but it might not be very good for the other viewing spots, which is why I have not done it.

I'd love to have a SVS, it's on my list of not so near future upgrades, but the wife would frown a little less at a $250 sub vs a $750
Main HT
Speakers: SVS Prime Center, Bookshelves, Satellites, SVS PB-2000
Receiver: Denon X4300H
Video: BenQ HT2050, Silver Ticket 100" White, Darbee DVP 5000S
HTPC: Intel Core i3-3220, 8GB DDR3 1600, 750ti 2GB, 7TB of HDD's, LG Bluray
Bluray: Pioneer BDP-150
Gaming: HTPC, XBOX One
Other: DirecTV, Sennheiser RS170, APC C25B Power Filter
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Old 09-23-2016, 04:23 PM   #5
Gravy4547 Gravy4547 is offline
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It looks like you have enough speaker where the majority, if not all, of your bass can be handled by your mains. Those are 8 x 6 1/2 drivers right? I have a pair of Monitor 65T's which are 3x5.25 drivers/speaker and when I ran Audyssey it told me to set them to large (full range no crossover freq.) However, I did not want to do this as I wanted my sub to handle all the dig-deep-bass as well as some of the higher bass frequencies. So I overrided my Audyssey and set the crossover to 30Hz (or 40Hz-can't remember off the top of my head, but it was the lowest Hz setting)

This may be your problem too. If you feel that you are not employing your sub enough, you may want to change the crossover frequency and give your sub a little more work to do.

This may or may not sound better. In my case, I have an Epic Legend sub and it kicks ass totally and completely. It is better equipped to handle bass than my speakers, so I gave it more work. If you think your Polks are better, then they should be handling the bass. Run some experiments and find out.

I would also do a sub crawl as ImPulSive suggested. You would be surprised how a few inches of movement can really make a sub shine or sound like a piece of garbage.

It also may be the case that you have a weaksauce receiver and if you pumped some more juice into your mains it would round out your bass experience.
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Old 09-23-2016, 04:36 PM   #6
Mudfrog Mudfrog is offline
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Audyssey sets the speakers to Large (6.5's) but I switch them back to small and have it crossed over at 80hz. They can go quite a bit lower than 80, but everything I have read recommends to leave them at 80.

My room is 14 x 22, just measured it.
Main HT
Speakers: SVS Prime Center, Bookshelves, Satellites, SVS PB-2000
Receiver: Denon X4300H
Video: BenQ HT2050, Silver Ticket 100" White, Darbee DVP 5000S
HTPC: Intel Core i3-3220, 8GB DDR3 1600, 750ti 2GB, 7TB of HDD's, LG Bluray
Bluray: Pioneer BDP-150
Gaming: HTPC, XBOX One
Other: DirecTV, Sennheiser RS170, APC C25B Power Filter
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Old 09-23-2016, 05:43 PM   #7
Gravy4547 Gravy4547 is offline
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Sounds like you have a balance issue with your set-up. Let your Polks pull their weight and see how it sounds. Set them to large and work your way up. Never heard of setting them to 80Hz, that is like for a small speaker. You got a very nice set of towers! You got them laying around being lazy, put those bad boys to work!

8 x 6.5 woofers driving mid-bass to mid/low-bass should sound excellent. Meaning, you should barely need a subwoofer. Only employ your sub to add a bit of punch at the low end of the spectrum.

Probably the disappointment you are hearing with your sub is that it is probably not capable of handling the 50-80Hz range very well and you are only allowing your Polks to go down to 80Hz and stop. So you are hearing the hole in you system. Cover that hole with your Polks and it will sound better.
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Old 09-23-2016, 07:13 PM   #8
ImPulSive ImPulSive is offline
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Not familar with your receiver, but like Gravy4547 suggests, make your mains do more work. Set them to large and set your sub for 60 HZ would be my first attempt. Or if you have to set them to small, lower the frequency to 50 Hz. The specs say 40 Hz at -3dB so I'd make sure your crossover is a bit above that, say 50 Hz. All depends on how your receiver settings work. Experiment and see what sounds the best you.
T: Marantz AV8801, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen2 x2, Mirage OMD-C2, Def Tech BP8B x2, Pro Monitor 1000 x6, SuperCube 2000 x2, SVS PB-2000 x2, Carada Precision 126 inch 1.78 BW, JVC DLA-RS600U PJ (2D/3D), Oppo UDP-203, PS3, APC H15, CyberPower CP1350PFCLCD
FR: Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen2, XPA-3 Gen2, Mirage OMD-C2 OMD-28 L/R OMD-15 Surrounds (in Rosewood), SVS SB2000 x2 (Piano Black), Kuro Elite 50in, Rega RP1 TT, Jolida JD9 MKII (upgraded), Comcast X1 DVR, Panasonic BD, Mac Mini, PS3, APC H15
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Old 09-26-2016, 06:32 PM   #9
prerich prerich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudfrog View Post
Thanks for the feedback guys. To answer some of your questions..

It's a fairly large room, I'll measure when I get home but if I had to guess I'd say it's roughly 16 x 25? I may be off, never measured it before. It's a bi-level house so on the side of the room is an empty space with steps.

My definition of struggling would be two fold, not able to play a low enough Hz which I do understand it is a limitation of the sub and adding a second identical sub will not help. The other part is the sub can be underwhelming. There have been times I actually get up and look behind the sub to ensure it's actually turned on. Other times I'm in shock of what the sub is capable of doing. A lot of it is dependent on the movie, but I feel underwhelmed more often than surprised. My thoughts about adding a second sub was to get more "uummph" and overall room filling bass, not just for me but for my whole family. My understanding of the subwoofer crawl is that you basically set it up for the main listening spot, but it might not be very good for the other viewing spots, which is why I have not done it.

I'd love to have a SVS, it's on my list of not so near future upgrades, but the wife would frown a little less at a $250 sub vs a $750
If you were willing to pay shipping Chris38 has an SVS 25-31 for sale for $250!
Infinity Comp Prelude P-FR, Infinity Comp Overture 1 - center & front hght, 2 Infinity QPS-1 side, Infinty P-QPS rear hght, Infinity fps-1000 rear, Infinity Outrigger Jr. overheads, 2 AE AV15 Power Cube subwoofers, SVS 16-46 CS (X2) 2 DCM Subs (rear), Denon AVR-X4300H (front hght and Prepro), Yamaha MX-830 (rear hght), B&K 200.7 Reference Amp, Behringer NU4-6000 (subs),miniDSP 2X4, BD HTPC, Tube DAC, NAS 20tb , Da-lite 16:9 106", Vivitek hk2288 4k proj, TCL Roku 4K TV.
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Old 09-26-2016, 07:11 PM   #10
Yungheat Yungheat is offline
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Have you ever looked into getting the BIC Pl-200 it's night and day compared to the f12 one Pl-200 should do it imo for your room size are room sizes are very similar from the look of your home theater gallery and I'm telling you the pl-200 is the way to go. Also have you ever looked into a sub riser I have the svs sub riser I have hardwood floors also and there a sound different when there on compared to off the link is attached below

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00NC...ubwoofer+riser
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Old 10-11-2016, 03:13 PM   #11
Mudfrog Mudfrog is offline
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When my receiver comes back from repair I'm going to try setting the fronts to 60hz. Everything I have viewed online says to set them to 80hz, but the SVS Merlin tool said to set them to 60hz and pair them with the PB-2000 sub.. I may just have to do that
Main HT
Speakers: SVS Prime Center, Bookshelves, Satellites, SVS PB-2000
Receiver: Denon X4300H
Video: BenQ HT2050, Silver Ticket 100" White, Darbee DVP 5000S
HTPC: Intel Core i3-3220, 8GB DDR3 1600, 750ti 2GB, 7TB of HDD's, LG Bluray
Bluray: Pioneer BDP-150
Gaming: HTPC, XBOX One
Other: DirecTV, Sennheiser RS170, APC C25B Power Filter
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Old 10-12-2016, 01:51 AM   #12
Auditor55 Auditor55 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudfrog View Post
Thanks for the feedback guys. To answer some of your questions..

It's a fairly large room, I'll measure when I get home but if I had to guess I'd say it's roughly 16 x 25? I may be off, never measured it before. It's a bi-level house so on the side of the room is an empty space with steps.

My definition of struggling would be two fold, not able to play a low enough Hz which I do understand it is a limitation of the sub and adding a second identical sub will not help. The other part is the sub can be underwhelming. There have been times I actually get up and look behind the sub to ensure it's actually turned on. Other times I'm in shock of what the sub is capable of doing. A lot of it is dependent on the movie, but I feel underwhelmed more often than surprised. My thoughts about adding a second sub was to get more "uummph" and overall room filling bass, not just for me but for my whole family. My understanding of the subwoofer crawl is that you basically set it up for the main listening spot, but it might not be very good for the other viewing spots, which is why I have not done it.

I'd love to have a SVS, it's on my list of not so near future upgrades, but the wife would frown a little less at a $250 sub vs a $750
From what you describe, in my opinion, your going to have to upgrade your sub(s), there's no other way around it.
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Old 10-12-2016, 01:02 PM   #13
Mudfrog Mudfrog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post
From what you describe, in my opinion, your going to have to upgrade your sub(s), there's no other way around it.
Yea, that's what I've been thinking as well.
Main HT
Speakers: SVS Prime Center, Bookshelves, Satellites, SVS PB-2000
Receiver: Denon X4300H
Video: BenQ HT2050, Silver Ticket 100" White, Darbee DVP 5000S
HTPC: Intel Core i3-3220, 8GB DDR3 1600, 750ti 2GB, 7TB of HDD's, LG Bluray
Bluray: Pioneer BDP-150
Gaming: HTPC, XBOX One
Other: DirecTV, Sennheiser RS170, APC C25B Power Filter
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