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Old 01-21-2008, 04:03 AM   #1
ariess ariess is offline
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Default 60hz versus 24 fps, what's the real deal?

My question is, for movie watching on blu-ray with a good set (e.g., a 60" Sony SXRD),
how much of a difference does 24 fps really make over 60 Hz (with good 3:2 pulldown)? No exaggerations please, I am sure anyone who paid a few extra bucks to get 24 fps can sing its praises. Say on a scale of 1 to 10 for improvements where going from DVD to Blu-ray is a 10 (great), 1080i to 1080p is a 2 (hard to notice) and
a mediocre blu-ray to a great blu-ray is a 6 (pretty clear), what is going from 60hz to 24fps like? Anyway compare this with 24fps on and off? What's the the straight truth?
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:31 AM   #2
Blu-ray Fanatic Blu-ray Fanatic is offline
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60 hz is pretty damn good and its just a different way of rephrasing the 24 fps. Every company has their own way of configuring their TV reaction time
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:32 AM   #3
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I own a Sharp Aquos and the reaction time is 6 ms (whatever that means)
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:33 AM   #4
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All consumers know is the lower the number goes the better it gets even though its not noticable to the naked eye
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:21 AM   #5
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all I know is that when I got my samsung 466f model, there was always a scene that I recognized alot of blur to the point it was disturbing and figured when I got this one it would go away. The first thing I did is turn 24ghz or what ever it's called and put it on that scene and it was still there so I figured what the heck let me turn it off and run it on 60ghz, and when I put it on the scene again it was all JUST about gone almost unoticable. So to me the 60ghz on my tv basically got rid of my blur affect that haunted alot of movies I saw. So for me 60ghz is the better deal on my tv.
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:39 AM   #6
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Blu-ray Fanatic, 60Hz is not a "rephrasing" of 24Hz, I think you are a bit confused as to what 24Hz and 60Hz, as you seem to have the refresh rate confused w/ reaction time. 24Hz has been discussed on this forum, so do a search on it.

JLaSoul, most TVs that can accept 24Hz signals (24ghz would be faster by a power of one billion!) do not display those signals at 24Hz, but rather at 120Hz. 24 goes into 120 five times, so there is a need to do something with those extra cycles until the next frame is ready to come up. Here is an explanation for Sony's 120Hz technology from hometheatermag.com:

Quote:
Converting a 1080p/60 or 1080p/24 source to 1080p/120 requires simulating the additional frames in some way, since they are not in the source. There are three ways to do this: interpolation of new frames, repeating the original frame multiple times, or making every other repeated frame a black frame. Motionflow creates these addition frames by the first method—temporal interpolation.

Motionflow adds either one interpolated frame for1080p/60 sources or four interpolated frames for 1080p/24 sources to each source frame to reach the 120Hz refresh rate required by the set's 120Hz operation. If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame is simply repeated as many times as needed to get to 120Hz, with no interpolation.
You can read more here: http://www.hometheatermag.com/lcds/907sonybrav/

Since interpolation "guesses" where a moving object will be, it can introduce artifacts, so in my experience it is best to set a TV w/ 120Hz to a low setting (a friend's Sammy has 4 settings: low, med, high, and dynamic), as that gave a fluid picture with no artifacts in my experience.

Ariess, to answer your question, I have not seen an entire movie with this, but I have seen enough to be VERY jealous of the fact that my TV does not have this capability. I am considering an upgrade. When done right, everything appeared much more fluid and lifelike.
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:47 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariess View Post
My question is, for movie watching on blu-ray with a good set (e.g., a 60" Sony SXRD),
how much of a difference does 24 fps really make over 60 Hz (with good 3:2 pulldown)? No exaggerations please, I am sure anyone who paid a few extra bucks to get 24 fps can sing its praises. Say on a scale of 1 to 10 for improvements where going from DVD to Blu-ray is a 10 (great), 1080i to 1080p is a 2 (hard to notice) and
a mediocre blu-ray to a great blu-ray is a 6 (pretty clear), what is going from 60hz to 24fps like? Anyway compare this with 24fps on and off? What's the the straight truth?
please ignore the first four responses to your question. pixel response time has nothing to do with 24fps. i refuse to comment on how much better 24hz is to 60hz because i have only seen it on display in stores and there are too many variables to account for.
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:49 AM   #8
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you will probably get most of the answers you want in this thread.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....highlight=24hz
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:56 AM   #9
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youre comparing framerate to refresh rate
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Old 01-21-2008, 02:04 PM   #10
ariess ariess is offline
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Default smoothness?

Yes, the posts have gotten off target. The issue is that most movies are shot
at 24 frames per second. TV's and blu-ray players which do 60 hz (that means 60 frames per second) came up with a cheat to synchronize 24 frames to the 60 they need to show: they show the first frame 3 times and the next one 2 times the third one 3 times, etc resulting in 24 frames in the 60 slots.
Newer players and TV's can match the 24 better because they are 120 hz (120 slots per second) and 24 goes into 120 evenly.

The question is, how much difference to the eye does it really make?
The reason I ask is that I tend to see two kinds of answers, a number of bloggers gush about how smooth and great 24 fps done right looks. But when I really from "professional" reviewers they usually say, "we didn't like the way it looked...too video-like...so we turned that feature off". See these examples:

This is typical:

CNET:

We watched quite a few scenes from the excellent HD DVD transfer of The Departed for two reasons. One, it is a reference-quality transfer and ably showed the Sony's many picture quality attributes, such as exceptional color saturation and razor sharp imagery. The other reason is that the early luncheonette scene in Chapter 1, specifically the long pan as the waitress moves from the right side of the counter all the way to the left to meet Jack Nicholson at the register, is a great test of de-judder processing. Sony's Motion Enhancer seemed to smooth out that pan quite nicely with no artifacts in Standard mode, although High mode made it look entirely too videolike. (Update 11-30-2007) For most of The Departed and for film-based material in general, however, we preferred to leave this setting Off completely to preserve the filmlike look. Your personal preference may vary with this setting in particular; some viewers like the extra smoothness, while some do not.

So how much difference does 24 fps really make?
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Old 01-21-2008, 03:08 PM   #11
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Ariess, like I said earlier, I think when set right 120Hz can make evertything seem nice and fluid. As the CNET quote says, when set at high it can make everything to video-like. When I see 120Hz on display at BestBuy I think it makes movies look like a crappy theme park movie. When set to low, though, it can make a movie seem very different, everything just looks very natural.

As I said, I'm jealous I don't have a TV w/ this capability. I think this is a technology which will need refinement, but I wonder if those "professional" reviews of which you speak have their TVs set at high for the 120Hz effect. I watched a few scenes of "Letters from Iwo Jima" on a 120Hz set last night, and when it was set to high there were artifacts and it was too video-like, but when set to low the scene of the General's plane landing looked very natural and no artifacts were present.

In short, I like it very much when set right. I would like to see a new Pioneer plasma running a blu-ray player, as it does not do 120Hz but instead it does 72Hz, and they just repeat each frame 3 times, which may be a better solution, but I have not seen it yet.
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:48 PM   #12
dobyblue dobyblue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhaase View Post
Ariess, like I said earlier, I think when set right 120Hz can make evertything seem nice and fluid. As the CNET quote says, when set at high it can make everything to video-
Only on HDTV sets that do it properly.

A number of them take a 24Hz signal and handshake with it, then perform 3:2 pulldown to get to 60Hz, then double it up to 120Hz.

When looking at a 120Hz HDTV if native 24fps handling is something you're interested in, you want one that performs 5:5 pulldown on the 24fps, not 3:2 then 2:2.

The majority of the new Sony sets correctly use 5:5 pulldown.

The majority of the Sharp Aquos sets use 3:2 then 2:2 pulldown, which can result in judder.

The real question you should be asking is how noticeable 3:2 judder really is. If you never notice it, and most people don't, then it's not something that should be high on your list compared to contrast ratio, motion resolution and response time.
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:22 PM   #13
ariess ariess is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
The real question you should be asking is how noticeable 3:2 judder really is. If you never notice it, and most people don't, then it's not something that should be high on your list compared to contrast ratio, motion resolution and response time.
Okay, so how noticeable is judder? Can't say that
I have noticed it before.

I have a decent blu-ray collection, is there a particular scene that is "judder sensitive" that I could go look at?
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:25 PM   #14
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its all subjective. i can notice the judder on the new 120hz sets. while the picture is pristine, i can't stand the way the pictures "rolls."
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:51 PM   #15
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A good movie to see the judder is the Simpsons in any scene with a pan.

It's quite noticeable on my tv which is 60hz only, and is not even an issue on my dad's xbr5.

Damn do I want an xbr5......

Last edited by Metalheadisme; 01-21-2008 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:53 PM   #16
Metalheadisme Metalheadisme is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ground chuck View Post
its all subjective. i can notice the judder on the new 120hz sets. while the picture is pristine, i can't stand the way the pictures "rolls."
Yeah, I was dissapointed to see some of the 120hz sets still not do the pulldown correctly.

Sometimes this is from the player not properly outputting 24hz or a receiver in the middle screwing with the video as well.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:18 PM   #17
richteer richteer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariess View Post
Okay, so how noticeable is judder? Can't say that
I have noticed it before.

I have a decent blu-ray collection, is there a particular scene that is "judder sensitive" that I could go look at?
One thing to look for is the vertically scrolling titles at the end of most movies. The juddering effect is quite apparent on my 32" 1080p Sharp Aquos, especially with white titles on a black background.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:23 PM   #18
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Theres NO Blur in Blu-ray movie's on Plasma's I love um! Best PQ & no refresh prob's
Pioneer 9G Kuro's 5020 with Elite board swap, KRP500m, Elite 111, Elite 151. Onkyo 706, Polk TSi 5.1 all the way around & 10" sub. Pioneer BD player & Panasonic BD player along with three PS3's, all original 60gig units. 2x Harmony 1100 & 1 Harmony 1000 touch screen remotes. About 1,000 Blu-rays...
My Brother R.I.P. Sep 9, 1980 - (killed) July 23, 2008"Dream as if you will live forever, Live as if you will die today"

Last edited by Sonny; 01-21-2008 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalheadisme View Post
A good movie to see the judder is the Simpsons in any scene with a pan.

It's quite noticeable on my tv which is 60hz only, and is not even an issue on my dad's xbr5.

Damn do I want an xbr5......
My XBR5 is SICK! BEST LCD by far!
Pioneer 9G Kuro's 5020 with Elite board swap, KRP500m, Elite 111, Elite 151. Onkyo 706, Polk TSi 5.1 all the way around & 10" sub. Pioneer BD player & Panasonic BD player along with three PS3's, all original 60gig units. 2x Harmony 1100 & 1 Harmony 1000 touch screen remotes. About 1,000 Blu-rays...
My Brother R.I.P. Sep 9, 1980 - (killed) July 23, 2008"Dream as if you will live forever, Live as if you will die today"
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:32 PM   #20
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No TV is perfect but I don't care because I still accept my 32" Aquos 1080p as good enough
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