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Old 09-11-2015, 08:19 AM   #1
ECrispy ECrispy is offline
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Default Why did DTS win, and will DTS:X win over Atmos?

DTS is considered better than DD 5.1, and DTS-MA is much more common than TrueHD and is also considered better. How did this come about?

Atmos has a head start, but from what I've read DTS:X will allow more custom speaker placement (it will essentially adapt to what you have and use DSP to shape the sound) and be compatible with Atmos layout as well.

Do you think it will end up being the more popular format? It is also completely free unlike Atmos for content creators to use.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:11 AM   #2
Riddler95 Riddler95 is offline
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I honestly don't think that DTS:X and Dolby Atmos will take over. DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD are already uncompressed, I don't know how DTS:X and Dolby Atmos can improve upon them.

I think that DTS-HD Master Audio took over from Dolby TrueHD for most Blu-Ray releases because it can successfully be converted to a lossy DTS Mix compressed at the Full Bitrate whereas Dolby TrueHD can't and must have a lossy Dolby Digital Track attached to it.

Yes on both DVD and LaserDisc DTS did offer superior sound quality over Dolby Digital. Now DTS on LaserDisc was compressed at the Full Bitrate and the first few waves of DTS DVDs were done the same. When they decided to go with the Reduced Bitrate/755kbps for DTS on DVD it still sounded better than Dolby Digital but the improvement wasn't as noticeable as the Full Bitrate. Don't get me wrong, I think that Dolby Digital still sounds terrific but when I watch a DVD that has a DTS Track I always go for that option.

When Blu-Ray & HD-DVD launched in 2006 I remember the audio being as big of a deal as the video because for the first time we were able to watch movies at home with uncompressed audio. I do think that PCM, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD Master Audio does sound better than Dolby Digital and DTS on DVD but I don't think that the improvement is as significant as the video. I've compared the audio on a bunch of DVDs to Blu-Ray versions and it isn't often when I hear a noticeable improvement.

Now I have listened to Audio Mixes on Blu-Ray that sound noticeably superior to the DVD but there have been times when I've listened to Blu-Ray Audio Mixes that sound identical to the DVD.

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Old 09-11-2015, 09:28 AM   #3
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DTS digital does have a higher bit rate (and encoded 4db louder) than Dolby Digital (which has a slightly efficient compression compared to DTS Digital), however the difference in listening is minimal (with equal levels). Furthermore, Dolby is a required codec for ATSC, so they also have their decoders in every tv, Directv box, dish box etc. DD also dominates streaming and DVD.

DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD are both lossless codecs and the only difference between the same PCM stream encoded in either wrappers is that DTS is 4db louder. The only reason DTS became the preferred format for blu ray's because when the authoring tools first came out, DTS-HD could do an encoding and QC pass at the same time thus saving time and money. Both Dolby and DTS decoders are mandatory in a BR player and they both get royalties from that.

Dolby Atmos can adapt to speaker placement as well, it just isn't implemented in the current generation of low cost receivers/processors. The Trinnov Altitude32 is able to do that with Atmos, although out of the price range for most people.

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Old 09-11-2015, 06:02 PM   #4
ECrispy ECrispy is offline
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Thanks, good info. The reason the improvement in lossless audio is not as big as video is because our ears have much less resolution than our eyes.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:18 PM   #5
Riddler95 Riddler95 is offline
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Originally Posted by ECrispy View Post
Thanks, good info. The reason the improvement in lossless audio is not as big as video is because our ears have much less resolution than our eyes.
Exactly.

The Superbit DVD of Spider-Man 2 was reference quality for the format, the 5.1 DTS Mix was incredible. The Blu-Ray's 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio Mix sounded noticeably superior to my ears.

The 5.1 DTS Track on the 2-Disc Special Edition DVD of Toy Story 2 is one of the best 5.1 Mixes I have ever heard. When I compared it to the 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio Mix on the Blu-Ray I honestly could not tell the difference. Both sounded identical to my ears.

Another example is The Nightmare Before Christmas. Both the Special & Collector's Edition DVDs had an excellent 5.1 DTS Mix. The Dolby TrueHD Mix on the Blu-Ray sounded identical to my ears.

I guess it really has to do with how much time, money, and effort the studio wants to put into the sound mix.

I remember the 2-Disc Special Edition DVD of Disney's Sleeping Beauty had a pretty decent 5.1 Dolby Digital Mix. For the Platinum Edition Blu-Ray Disney had an all new sound mix made and that DTS-HD Master Audio Mix offered a nice improvement over the older 5.1 Mix.
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Old 09-12-2015, 03:39 AM   #6
Dubstar Dubstar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddler95 View Post
Exactly.

The Superbit DVD of Spider-Man 2 was reference quality for the format, the 5.1 DTS Mix was incredible. The Blu-Ray's 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio Mix sounded noticeably superior to my ears.

The 5.1 DTS Track on the 2-Disc Special Edition DVD of Toy Story 2 is one of the best 5.1 Mixes I have ever heard. When I compared it to the 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio Mix on the Blu-Ray I honestly could not tell the difference. Both sounded identical to my ears.

Another example is The Nightmare Before Christmas. Both the Special & Collector's Edition DVDs had an excellent 5.1 DTS Mix. The Dolby TrueHD Mix on the Blu-Ray sounded identical to my ears.

I guess it really has to do with how much time, money, and effort the studio wants to put into the sound mix.

I remember the 2-Disc Special Edition DVD of Disney's Sleeping Beauty had a pretty decent 5.1 Dolby Digital Mix. For the Platinum Edition Blu-Ray Disney had an all new sound mix made and that DTS-HD Master Audio Mix offered a nice improvement over the older 5.1 Mix.
actually Toy Story 2's mix on DVD and bluray is 5.1 EX/ES. There's a great audio cue where a car's hubcap goes flying up, over and landing directly behind you.

Nightmare Before Christmas, Sleeping Beauty superseded the DVD's with new 7.1 mixes.
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Old 09-12-2015, 08:48 AM   #7
Riddler95 Riddler95 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dubstar View Post
actually Toy Story 2's mix on DVD and bluray is 5.1 EX/ES. There's a great audio cue where a car's hubcap goes flying up, over and landing directly behind you.

Nightmare Before Christmas, Sleeping Beauty superseded the DVD's with new 7.1 mixes.
I forgot that Toy Story 2 was 6.1 and not 5.1, thanks for the correction. I remember the scene you mentioned from Toy Story 2. That movie had terrific audio and used 6.1 to a good extent. It is too bad that 6.1 never took off. The first time I ever heard discrete 6.1 was on the Extended Edition DVD of The Lord Of The Rings: The Fellowship Of The Ring and I was blown away.

Even though I liked 6.1, I've never really been interested in 7.1 and I don't think that it will replace 5.1. I think 5.1 is plenty although I do think that 7.1 is necessary for a very large room.

Thinking about it now, when I compared the the Dolby TrueHD Mix on the Blu-Ray to the DTS Mixes on the Special & Collector's DVD Editions of The Nightmare Before Christmas I did notice a few parts where the audio on the Blu-Ray sounded noticeably superior, one part was when Jack is being transported to Christmas Town. I don't think think that the Dolby TrueHD Mix blew away the DTS Mix but it did have some advantages.

The Nightmare Before Christmas was even available on LaserDisc with the 5.1 DTS Track. I remember people saying that the DTS Mix for Nightmare Before Christmas was reference quality audio.

The 5.1 Dolby Digital Mix on the 2-Disc Special Edition DVD of Sleeping Beauty must have been the mix that was featured on the 1997 LaserDisc release. I know that for the Platinum Edition Blu-Ray Disney gathered all the audio elements and made the new mix.
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Old 09-12-2015, 06:12 PM   #8
Dubstar Dubstar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddler95 View Post
I forgot that Toy Story 2 was 6.1 and not 5.1, thanks for the correction. I remember the scene you mentioned from Toy Story 2. That movie had terrific audio and used 6.1 to a good extent. It is too bad that 6.1 never took off. The first time I ever heard discrete 6.1 was on the Extended Edition DVD of The Lord Of The Rings: The Fellowship Of The Ring and I was blown away.

Even though I liked 6.1, I've never really been interested in 7.1 and I don't think that it will replace 5.1. I think 5.1 is plenty although I do think that 7.1 is necessary for a very large room.

Thinking about it now, when I compared the the Dolby TrueHD Mix on the Blu-Ray to the DTS Mixes on the Special & Collector's DVD Editions of The Nightmare Before Christmas I did notice a few parts where the audio on the Blu-Ray sounded noticeably superior, one part was when Jack is being transported to Christmas Town. I don't think think that the Dolby TrueHD Mix blew away the DTS Mix but it did have some advantages.

The Nightmare Before Christmas was even available on LaserDisc with the 5.1 DTS Track. I remember people saying that the DTS Mix for Nightmare Before Christmas was reference quality audio.

The 5.1 Dolby Digital Mix on the 2-Disc Special Edition DVD of Sleeping Beauty must have been the mix that was featured on the 1997 LaserDisc release. I know that for the Platinum Edition Blu-Ray Disney gathered all the audio elements and made the new mix.
in terms of 'Sleeping Beauty' the bluray also includes the original 4 channel stereophonic track. There's a great featurette on the soundmixing of the film to 7.1 and details how the designers placed specifically audio cues to the center rears to dramatic effect (i.e, Aurora's singing voice is heard by Prince Philip but to us the viewer: left rear).

in regards to Pixar, there are a quite a few DVD/Blu's that have 6.1 matrixed sound, largely unadvertised:

Up
Cars [note: 2007's bluray release is discrete LPCM 5.1 audio track - the change over to Dolby TrueHD for the latter releases reinstated the 6.1 matrix mix]
Ratatouille
WALL-E
The Incredibles

again, 'Toy Story 2' the soundmixing implements the phantom spacing between the left,center,right channels to brilliant effect by placing voices and spreading the sound field to widening effect and pinpointing the varying characters to where they are specifically standing in-screen - one wonders how that would sound in Dolby Atmos theatrical setup's that use five front channel sound [(whispers)..."epic"]
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Old 09-12-2015, 07:12 PM   #9
BIslander BIslander is offline
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Default Why did DTS win, and will DTS:X win over Atmos?

References to DTS or Dolby mixes may be shorthand, but are not correct. Soundtracks are mixed long before they get encoded using DTS or Dolby, which are data compression codecs whose sole purpose is saving space. When it comes to lossless compression such as DTS HD Master Audio and TrueHD, the decoded outputs will be identical when the same soundtrack is used as the source. They have to be, otherwise they aren't lossless.

So, to the original question, dts-MA is not the main codec used on Blu-ray because of audio superiority. Rather, it's for other business reasons. And, Dolby remains dominant in most other audio applications outside of BD.
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:43 PM   #10
Riddler95 Riddler95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
References to DTS or Dolby mixes may be shorthand, but are not correct. Soundtracks are mixed long before they get encoded using DTS or Dolby, which are data compression codecs whose sole purpose is saving space. When it comes to lossless compression such as DTS HD Master Audio and TrueHD, the decoded outputs will be identical when the same soundtrack is used as the source. They have to be, otherwise they aren't lossless.

So, to the original question, dts-MA is not the main codec used on Blu-ray because of audio superiority. Rather, it's for other business reasons. And, Dolby remains dominant in most other audio applications outside of BD.
That is very true. Whenever the soundtrack for a movie is created it is always done in PCM. Then after that it is encoded in either Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD Master Audio.
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:50 PM   #11
Riddler95 Riddler95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubstar View Post
in terms of 'Sleeping Beauty' the bluray also includes the original 4 channel stereophonic track. There's a great featurette on the soundmixing of the film to 7.1 and details how the designers placed specifically audio cues to the center rears to dramatic effect (i.e, Aurora's singing voice is heard by Prince Philip but to us the viewer: left rear).

in regards to Pixar, there are a quite a few DVD/Blu's that have 6.1 matrixed sound, largely unadvertised:

Up
Cars [note: 2007's bluray release is discrete LPCM 5.1 audio track - the change over to Dolby TrueHD for the latter releases reinstated the 6.1 matrix mix]
Ratatouille
WALL-E
The Incredibles

again, 'Toy Story 2' the soundmixing implements the phantom spacing between the left,center,right channels to brilliant effect by placing voices and spreading the sound field to widening effect and pinpointing the varying characters to where they are specifically standing in-screen - one wonders how that would sound in Dolby Atmos theatrical setup's that use five front channel sound [(whispers)..."epic"]
I own the Platinum Edition Blu-Ray of Sleeping Beauty and I love that featurette on the creation of the 7.1 Mix. I live in Canada and the Canadian Version of the Sleeping Beauty Platinum Edition Blu-Ray has only the 7.1 Mix on the disc but luckily the DVD Copy included has the Original Theatrical 4-Channel Stereo Mix.

So those Pixar titles you mentioned aren't Discrete but are Matrixed 6.1? It looks like most 6.1 Mixes are Matrixed than Discrete.

I need to get The Incredibles on Blu-Ray and I am hoping that it is re-released soon.
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Old 09-13-2015, 04:31 AM   #12
Dubstar Dubstar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddler95 View Post
I own the Platinum Edition Blu-Ray of Sleeping Beauty and I love that featurette on the creation of the 7.1 Mix. I live in Canada and the Canadian Version of the Sleeping Beauty Platinum Edition Blu-Ray has only the 7.1 Mix on the disc but luckily the DVD Copy included has the Original Theatrical 4-Channel Stereo Mix.

So those Pixar titles you mentioned aren't Discrete but are Matrixed 6.1? It looks like most 6.1 Mixes are Matrixed than Discrete.

I need to get The Incredibles on Blu-Ray and I am hoping that it is re-released soon.
correct.
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Old 09-13-2015, 07:29 AM   #13
Riddler95 Riddler95 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dubstar View Post
correct.
I know that the Extended Editions of The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy were Discrete 6.1. What are some other movies that used Discrete 6.1?

I remember the DVDs of Rush Hour 2, Austin Powers in Goldmember, and X-Men: The Last Stand had DTS ES 6.1 Mixes but I am not sure if they were Discrete?

I know that the 2004 DVD and 2011 Blu-Ray Releases of The Star Wars Trilogy were Matrixed 6.1, even the Prequel Trilogy was Matrixed 6.1. In fact the Japanese LaserDisc of The Phantom Menace was the first Home Video release to include a 6.1 Audio Mix. The LaserDiscs of the 1997 Special Edition Versions of The Star Wars Trilogy featured 5.1 Dolby Digital Mixes and some people think that those 5.1 Mixes are superior to the 2004 & 2011 6.1 Mixes.
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Old 09-13-2015, 08:23 AM   #14
ECrispy ECrispy is offline
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I've read that most 7.1 bluray tracks are also matrixed from a 5.1 source, is this true?

I'm assuming that the matrixing algorithm they use to master will be better than the PL IIx on receiver which does the same thing, but this may be a bad assumption.

Also I wonder if the new DSU which is part of Atmos is an improved algorithm or not.
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Old 09-13-2015, 05:45 PM   #15
Dubstar Dubstar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddler95 View Post
I know that the Extended Editions of The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy were Discrete 6.1. What are some other movies that used Discrete 6.1?

I remember the DVDs of Rush Hour 2, Austin Powers in Goldmember, and X-Men: The Last Stand had DTS ES 6.1 Mixes but I am not sure if they were Discrete?

I know that the 2004 DVD and 2011 Blu-Ray Releases of The Star Wars Trilogy were Matrixed 6.1, even the Prequel Trilogy was Matrixed 6.1. In fact the Japanese LaserDisc of The Phantom Menace was the first Home Video release to include a 6.1 Audio Mix. The LaserDiscs of the 1997 Special Edition Versions of The Star Wars Trilogy featured 5.1 Dolby Digital Mixes and some people think that those 5.1 Mixes are superior to the 2004 & 2011 6.1 Mixes.
this might be helpful

http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_9a.asp
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Old 09-13-2015, 06:14 PM   #16
Dubstar Dubstar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECrispy View Post
I've read that most 7.1 bluray tracks are also matrixed from a 5.1 source, is this true?

I'm assuming that the matrixing algorithm they use to master will be better than the PL IIx on receiver which does the same thing, but this may be a bad assumption.

Also I wonder if the new DSU which is part of Atmos is an improved algorithm or not.
I think it's the opposite - a composite discrete 7.1 mix is initially culled/mixed and then downmixed to 5.1

interestingly theatrically DCP's actually are released separately with each mix depending on theater's sound system setups.
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Old 09-13-2015, 06:57 PM   #17
Riddler95 Riddler95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubstar View Post
Thanks for the link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECrispy View Post
I've read that most 7.1 bluray tracks are also matrixed from a 5.1 source, is this true?

I'm assuming that the matrixing algorithm they use to master will be better than the PL IIx on receiver which does the same thing, but this may be a bad assumption.

Also I wonder if the new DSU which is part of Atmos is an improved algorithm or not.
I've read that too that most 7.1 Mixes are sourced from a 5.1 Source and I also read that the only time they go 7.1 is if the budget allows them too.

I remember reading that Toy Story 3 was the first movie to have a Discrete 7.1 Mix. When the Blu-Ray came out it had both a 7.1 and a 5.1 Mix in DTS-HD Master Audio.
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Old 09-13-2015, 07:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECrispy View Post
I've read that most 7.1 bluray tracks are also matrixed from a 5.1 source, is this true?

I'm assuming that the matrixing algorithm they use to master will be better than the PL IIx on receiver which does the same thing, but this may be a bad assumption.

Also I wonder if the new DSU which is part of Atmos is an improved algorithm or not.
In some cases where the original film was not mixed into 7.1, possibly. But for a film where they expect good sales, they would go back and remix the surrounds. Matrixing worked for Dolby EX (and DTS ES) because they just took whatever was mono in the left and right surrounds and steered it to the rear center, but with two rear speakers, matrixing wouldn't really work unless you sent exactly the same signal to left rear and right rear, which wouldn't provide any incremental benefit over EX.

But since I don't see that many 7.1 BD's, I have to wonder how many 7.1 BD's there are (if any) that didn't also have a theatrical 7.1 mix. What we might see going forward are 7.1 BD mixes that are down mixed from Atmos.

Going forward, we're going to see fewer 7.1 films theatrically as those films will be mixed into Dolby Atmos instead. Unless it's buried somewhere, Dolby doesn't even list 7.1 films on their website anymore.
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:14 AM   #19
Dubstar Dubstar is offline
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actually there are a few 7.1 movies that weren't mixed in Atmos

just this year alone:

- Straight Outta Compton
- Cinderella
- Jurassic World
- Furious 7
- Mortdecai
- Seventh Son
- Poltergeist
- Fantastic Four
- Hitman Agent 47
- The Transporter Refueled

Dolby abandoned listing 7.1 since they are entrenched in advertising/implementing Dolby Atmos into theaters - and anyways 7.1 is not trademarkable as any one can mix and release it as such
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Old 09-14-2015, 04:31 AM   #20
Ruined Ruined is offline
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DTS:X vs Atmos... For the home market, this is a war for table crumbs.

DTS-MA will continue to be the dominant standard for home theater enthusiasts indefinitely in all likelihood, as the chances of UHDBD succeeding are slim to none.

Personally I have a DPLIIz height setup with 9 speakers, two subwoofers, and 4 tactile transducers and I wlll *not* upgrade to Atmos or DTS:X. This is not due to cost, but primarily that in order for object based audio to really work well you need all direct firing speakers; but in order for traditional surround to work best with multiple seating rows bipolar speakers are best for the surround field (IMO). Thus, I am not going to localize my surround field for a handful of Atmos/DTS:X titles.
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