Best Blu-ray Deals

Black Friday Week is Live, $3.99 Blu-ray Movies »
Now: Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit $6.00 (64% sold out)
Now: Silver Linings Playbook $6.00 (2 hours left)
Top deals | Price drops  
 All countries United States United Kingdom Canada Germany France Spain Italy Japan
Good Will Hunting (Blu-ray)
$3.99
1 hr ago
The Blacklist: The Complete First Season (Blu-ray)
$15.49
2 hrs ago
Super 8 (Blu-ray)
$4.99
1 hr ago
The Walking Dead: The Complete Fourth Season (Blu-ray)
$24.49
2 hrs ago
Scott Pilgrim vs. the World (Blu-ray)
$6.96
49 min ago
Lone Survivor (Blu-ray)
$7.99
 
Masters of Sex: Season One (Blu-ray)
$14.96
17 hrs ago
X-Men: First Class (Blu-ray)
$3.99
 
Son of Batman (Blu-ray)
$8.00
19 hrs ago
A Million Ways to Die in the West (Blu-ray)
$9.96
49 min ago
Person of Interest: The Complete Third Season (Blu-ray)
$14.99
 
Rise of the Planet of the Apes (Blu-ray)
$3.99
 
The Avengers (Blu-ray)
$9.99
 
You Only Live Twice (Blu-ray)
$3.99
17 hrs ago

Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Blu-ray > Blu-ray Technology and Future Technology

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-13-2008, 09:59 AM   #1
Banjo Banjo is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
Banjo's Avatar
 
Dec 2006
Ontario, Canada
143
Exclamation PS3 & Blu-ray Players: Why Closed Captioning is Necessary

Yesterday, there were some discussions on closed captioning, SDH (subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing) and what issues need to be addressed.

The HDMI cable, it is a wonderful thing to have. It can carry the 1080p signal bringing you true high-definition video and audio quality. The bad news is that there are drawbacks. The cable itself is only able to transmit a video signal and an audio signal simultaneously.

What this means is that you cannot put any other signal through a HDMI cable because it will not be recognized at the other end. This is an issue for many deaf and hard of hearing people. A lot of deaf people use closed captioning to read the dialogues and background noises so they can become aware of what is going on.

Closed captioning and SDH are different. SDH itself is image-based while closed captioning is ASCII-based. For the last 10 years with the HDTVs on the market, people are still facing issues with built-in CC decoders on their HDTV sets. There are a few factors in why these are happening. For example, many DVD players are unable to send the CC signal to the HDTV when it is enabled in the progressive mode. The reason why this happens is because the analog CC fills in every 21st line in the interlaced mode. So when it is in the progressive mode, all lines appear at once so the CC signal is unable to find a place to fill in the information.

So, the best way to solve that problem is to use a software decoder rather than a hardware decoder. It is available on many DVD playback softwares on both PC and Mac. The CC signal will overlay the video signal rather than being sent directly to the monitor, projector, TV, HDTV and other types of displays.

The fact is, there are no Blu-ray players out there that offer such a feature to overlay the CC signal onto the video signal. I don't know about the other Blu-ray players, but if these players’ firmware can be updated; then it may be a possibility. I am pretty certain that it is entirely possible to do it on the PS3 with a firmware update.

Now, even though most movies on Blu-ray are subtitled for the deaf and hard of hearing. There are still many deaf owners who own movies on DVD. Many of these movies on DVD do not use subtitles, they use closed captioning instead.

I have brought this issue up with some insiders including Paidgeek, Bill Hunt and more on several occasions. Whether you like it or not, Sony, Fox, MGM and Warner Bros holds a bad reputation for not subtitling or captioning the lyrics in the main feature (movie) and the special features. I sent Sony an e-mail regarding "Across the Universe" and how they abused the use of the term, SDH (subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing) when a large number of lyrics were not subtitled mainly because they were copyrighted. It's that simple, if you can't subtitle the lyrics, don't use the term, SDH to describe the subtitle track because it isn't fully accessible. They still haven't responded to the e-mail since it was sent more than a month ago. So yes, I do believe Sony is not being responsive to our needs.

Disney, DreamWorks, Paramount, Genius Products, New Line Cinema and more caption/subtitle all of the contents including the special features. They do care about our needs. There are thirty million Americans with hearing loss. It is not a small number of people at all.

Accessibility is important and should be made a top priority by every studio out there. Especially when the deaf and hard of hearing consumers pay the same price as everybody else. Just like the blind people deserve descriptive audio tracks on the movies they buy or rent.

There should be no barriers, but there are and we are constantly fighting to break them down. Sometimes, it's just easier for the majority to live in ignorance because it is blissful. However, ignoring it isn't going to make the problems go away. We do constantly face naysayers and audists on many occasions. I'm pretty much used to seeing ignorant remarks being made toward us. I don't let it get to me and I continue to fight for what I believe in.

We demand equal access. That is all we are asking for.

Here is a good website for these who may be unfamiliar with the captioning issues.

"Captioning Sucks!"

Last edited by Banjo; 04-13-2008 at 09:00 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2008, 10:05 AM   #2
evo_dadi evo_dadi is offline
Expert Member
 
evo_dadi's Avatar
 
Aug 2007
watsonville,cali
1
142
50
Send a message via AIM to evo_dadi Send a message via Yahoo to evo_dadi
Default

doh!!i always thought that CC as the same as SDH.i do miss that function sometimes when i have to watch a movie and put the volume really low.
Blu-ray Movies Collection

Time to start man-whoring to afford movies!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2008, 11:35 AM   #3
Septimus Prime Septimus Prime is offline
Blu-ray Samurai
 
Septimus Prime's Avatar
 
Jan 2008
164
2
Default

I personally can't stand CC because of it way it blacks out the part of the screen behind the text, but of course I can totally see why it should be included as a feature.

SDH, though, is a very nice alternative in the meantime, I think. I just wish they would put some edging on their text because yellow text on bright backgrounds is sometimes incredibly hard to read (I've experienced this problem personally with Wild Hogs and No Country).
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2008, 12:29 PM   #4
unreal1080p unreal1080p is offline
Special Member
 
unreal1080p's Avatar
 
Aug 2007
3rd Rock from the Sun
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banjo View Post
Yesterday, there were some discussions on closed captioning, SDH (subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing) and what issues need to be addressed.

Accessibility is important and should be made a top priority by every studio out there. Especially when the deaf and hard of hearing consumers pay the same price as everybody else. Just like the blind people deserve descriptive audio tracks on the movies they buy or rent.

There should be no barriers, but there are and we are constantly fighting to break them down. Sometimes, it's just easier for the majority to live in ignorance because it is blissful. However, ignoring it isn't going to make the problems go away. We do constantly face naysayers and audists on many occasions. I'm pretty much used to seeing ignorant remarks being made toward us. I don't let it get to me and I continue to fight for what I believe in.

We demand equal access. That is all we are asking for.
Much better then the other thread -->

Instead of overlaying the subtitles over the picture... is'nt there also a way for them to put the subtitles in the bottom black bar of an OAR DVD or OAR Blu-Ray that way you guys can get to see the WHOLE picture? If I were in your shoes, THAT'S what I would be pushing for (if possible).

Good Luck
Ezekiel 25:17 = the LAST words HD DUD ever heard --> "And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee" --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_3wdOTHB84

Don't like my post? Click here --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzoPTtTfcrA
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2008, 03:04 PM   #5
Cplhicks Cplhicks is offline
Special Member
 
Cplhicks's Avatar
 
Oct 2007
653
865
2
Default

I work have worked for caption/subtitles places, and lyrics are always a problem. Lots of times we were told by the companies NOT to do them for fear of lawsuits or whatever from the rights holders. I think it's crazy that a movie can use a song in the film, but somehow SHOWING the lyrics is a breach of contract or something. Isn't hearing it more important to rights holders? If the song was paid for to be used in the program, captions shouldn't be an issue. I think a lot of it is paranoia on the part of the studios, but there must've been some precedent on it. Bummer. I actually like to see song lyrics in subs/captions-- sometimes it's nice because I don't know what the heck they're saying even though I can hear them. Anyway, I hope you can get something figured out, because I know how important these are to people who need them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2008, 03:12 PM   #6
Slec Slec is offline
Blu-ray Samurai
 
Slec's Avatar
 
Dec 2007
Baltimore, MD
29
241
7
28
Default

Great recap Banjo. I'm glad to see you've been bringing this up to the insiders. They have always been more than willing to pass on our "gripes" with this format as it has continued to develop. Hopefully we can put some Umph behind this and get your guys a positive result!

In a perfect world, how would you like to see this displayed? Should it be connected to the subtitle button or part of the menu set (for DVD's)?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2008, 05:46 PM   #7
Banjo Banjo is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
Banjo's Avatar
 
Dec 2006
Ontario, Canada
143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unreal1080p View Post
Much better then the other thread -->

Instead of overlaying the subtitles over the picture... is'nt there also a way for them to put the subtitles in the bottom black bar of an OAR DVD or OAR Blu-Ray that way you guys can get to see the WHOLE picture? If I were in your shoes, THAT'S what I would be pushing for (if possible).

Good Luck
No, there is no way to re-position image-based subtitles on DVD and Blu-ray. Though Dracula was the first one where you could have subtitles in different positions for projectors that projects in 2.35:1.

CC is a different technology. I know it's easy to confuse CC with SDH, but they are not the same technology. Besides, image-based subtitles on DVD are in low-resolution, so they look pretty jaggy on HDTV displays. Today, on some HDTV displays, you can adjust the look of digital CC.

Although, it's difficult to have the subtitles where the black bars are because the aspect ratio varies from movie to movie. If it's 1.78:1 or 1.85:1, subtitles will be on the top of the image. If 2.35:1, just slightly over the image at times.

The reason why we need a software-based CC decoder on PS3 and Blu-ray players is because on many HDTVs, you cannot turn on CC nor is it an option when you are using the HDMI video input. It is a problem.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2008, 05:47 PM   #8
Banjo Banjo is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
Banjo's Avatar
 
Dec 2006
Ontario, Canada
143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cplhicks View Post
I work have worked for caption/subtitles places, and lyrics are always a problem. Lots of times we were told by the companies NOT to do them for fear of lawsuits or whatever from the rights holders. I think it's crazy that a movie can use a song in the film, but somehow SHOWING the lyrics is a breach of contract or something. Isn't hearing it more important to rights holders? If the song was paid for to be used in the program, captions shouldn't be an issue. I think a lot of it is paranoia on the part of the studios, but there must've been some precedent on it. Bummer. I actually like to see song lyrics in subs/captions-- sometimes it's nice because I don't know what the heck they're saying even though I can hear them. Anyway, I hope you can get something figured out, because I know how important these are to people who need them.
Yes, which is why they need to modify the copyright laws and the ADA. They are in the middle of revising the ADA right now. So it's a good time to bring up these issues.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2008, 05:48 PM   #9
Banjo Banjo is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
Banjo's Avatar
 
Dec 2006
Ontario, Canada
143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slec View Post
Great recap Banjo. I'm glad to see you've been bringing this up to the insiders. They have always been more than willing to pass on our "gripes" with this format as it has continued to develop. Hopefully we can put some Umph behind this and get your guys a positive result!

In a perfect world, how would you like to see this displayed? Should it be connected to the subtitle button or part of the menu set (for DVD's)?
Well, there are two ways I would do it. Activate it from the settings page or add a new function on the display menu that you can access by pressing the triangle button.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2008, 06:47 PM   #10
wallendo wallendo is offline
Special Member
 
wallendo's Avatar
 
Feb 2008
Okefenokee Swamp
244
4
Default

I posted this on the other thread but thought the link would still be interesting:

This article may shed some light on the situation:
http://www.ce.org/PDF/CEA_Closed_Cap...April_2007.pdf

Apparently closed captioning is supported on the Blu-ray format (a digital form of CC, not exactly the old format used with NTSC). Is it optional, not mandatory.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2008, 08:31 PM   #11
Banjo Banjo is offline
Blu-ray Guru
 
Banjo's Avatar
 
Dec 2006
Ontario, Canada
143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wallendo View Post
I posted this on the other thread but thought the link would still be interesting:

This article may shed some light on the situation:
http://www.ce.org/PDF/CEA_Closed_Cap...April_2007.pdf

Apparently closed captioning is supported on the Blu-ray format (a digital form of CC, not exactly the old format used with NTSC). Is it optional, not mandatory.
The link is broken. Can you please fix it? Thanks.

Anyway, even though Blu-ray can support CC but not if you are using HDMI from what I know. It's possible to get CC through component cables which only can go up to 1080i. However, most Blu-ray movies use SDH instead which I don't have a problem with.

I just read the PDF file you linked to in the other thread. Yes, I am aware that media/video players are not mandated. I think it's time to mandate it because the problems associated with HDTV displays is getting worse, not better.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 05:48 AM   #12
blindcat87 blindcat87 is offline
Expert Member
 
Sep 2007
Southern NM
Default

While I am, for obvious reasons, more up on laws dealing with accessibility of media for the blind, I always had the impression that the same laws apply to accessibility for the deaf.

Unless there is a difference in laws, there can be no copyright violation lawsuits regarding making material accessible no matter how much the lawyers want to jump up and down. On the blind side of things organizations like bookshare.org and the National Library Service for the Blind could not exist if the standard copyright laws applied. I suspect that closed captioning and subtitling for the deaf and hard of hearing fall under the same umbrella of protection. I wonder if the problem arises more from antcy lawyers who don't have much background in this area of the law. If I were a lawyer for a copyright holder I would think it would be unwise to file a suit even if one had the right to do so under the law. Tons of bad publicity about how such and such artist hates the deaf would be more damaging than such an absurd level of paranoia about rights and compensation.

I just can't see how the law would allow someone to sue for captions of lyrics when authors and publishers cannot file for the blind sharing OCR scans of novels for free with groups like Bookshare. In those cases, the only legal requirement is that access to the free versions of copyrighted material be llimited to those who are blind, legally bllind, or have certain learning disabilities. In the case of captions, I would think that listing them as part of a caption track for the deaf would satisfy the law. It is not like they are in a format that could be published elsewhere and all of the material on a BD is protected by copyright law and the DMCA. I think that any artist or publlisher that claimed that they should be compensated for having their material in an accessible format has no legal leg to stand on and would deserve the damage to their reputation that the publicity of the claim would bring them.

Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cplhicks View Post
I work have worked for caption/subtitles places, and lyrics are always a problem. Lots of times we were told by the companies NOT to do them for fear of lawsuits or whatever from the rights holders. I think it's crazy that a movie can use a song in the film, but somehow SHOWING the lyrics is a breach of contract or something. Isn't hearing it more important to rights holders? If the song was paid for to be used in the program, captions shouldn't be an issue. I think a lot of it is paranoia on the part of the studios, but there must've been some precedent on it. Bummer. I actually like to see song lyrics in subs/captions-- sometimes it's nice because I don't know what the heck they're saying even though I can hear them. Anyway, I hope you can get something figured out, because I know how important these are to people who need them.
"Game over, Moonpie."
  Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Blu-ray > Blu-ray Technology and Future Technology

Similar Threads
thread Forum Thread Starter Replies Last Post
Blu-Ray players need to support hard encoding Closed Caption CC Blu-ray PCs, Laptops, Drives, Media and Software vatkat234 2 08-16-2010 03:42 PM
Closed Captioning: I have a weird blue background behind the text/black box...Help! General Chat Chordata 0 02-13-2009 01:32 AM
New Blu-ray players arrive 3rd & 4th quarter! Blu-ray Technology and Future Technology ~*AZRAY*~ 7 06-22-2008 03:38 AM
Blu-ray players & SACD Newbie Discussion exstatic 5 01-05-2008 04:08 AM


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:36 AM.