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Old 06-18-2008, 01:00 PM   #1
tron3 tron3 is offline
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Lightbulb blu-ray needs Super Up Conversion (SUC)...

... if only to shut Toshiba up and beat them at their own game. They lost the war and now are playing politics in an effort to hurt blu-ray sales.

Sure, our BD players offer up conversion now, but with exception of the PS3, most of it is pretty lack luster.

So, improve the up conversion ability of blu-ray players. Consumers will be happier, have a better product, and Toshiba will finally have to shut up.

Better yet, license the Toshiba technology since it is so good. Maybe being part of blu-ray indirectly will help them warm up to it.

One thing is certain, Toshiba's wounds will take a LONG time to heal. Especially if they keep picking at them.
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Old 06-18-2008, 03:38 PM   #2
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Trying to improve up-converting will only serve to confuse the market and delay blu-ray adoption though. The idea right now is to entice people to buy their new movies solely on blu-ray, but if J6P gets the idea that his regular DVDs look just as good as blu-ray when super up-converted, what incentive would they have to purchase blu-ray movies at a higher price point? More effort should be put into increasing the quality and interactivity of blu-ray instead.
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Old 06-18-2008, 03:48 PM   #3
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If the PS3 can add a super up-converter in a future update, it would only make people watching DVDs happier. Since it would be an update, it would not be something that would confuse people. Plus it would be a good weapon against toshiba, not that we really need it

I think SUC tech will be too pricey to start out, in that Blu-ray will be able to match it. Plus, toshiba is again only one company, there are a slew of companies making blu-ray. Toshiba is just trying to keep DVD alive longer.
If they do this, they are only going to make themselves look even worse to retailers and consumers.
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:08 PM   #4
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I don't want Toshiba to have anything to do with the PS3 or Blu-Ray (other than the cell processor).
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:16 PM   #5
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I found a picture of the new Toshiba spokesman.

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Old 06-18-2008, 04:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shido View Post
Trying to improve up-converting will only serve to confuse the market and delay blu-ray adoption though. The idea right now is to entice people to buy their new movies solely on blu-ray, but if J6P gets the idea that his regular DVDs look just as good as blu-ray when super up-converted, what incentive would they have to purchase blu-ray movies at a higher price point? More effort should be put into increasing the quality and interactivity of blu-ray instead.
Not saying it should be a STRONG selling point, but it should be one. Many consumers assume that all upconversion is the same. I know I did at first and I am no idiot. I see your point. But let's not omit it either as that WOULD suc(k)!

It all becomes moot as little Johny will ask these questions in the future.

"Daddy, what is VHS?"
"Daddy, what is DVD?"
"Daddy, what is HD DVD?" "Oh it was nothing. It mostly suc(ks) now."
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:19 PM   #7
ckenisell ckenisell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulGo View Post
I found a picture of the new Toshiba spokesman.
I think you missed it in the other post:

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Old 06-18-2008, 04:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulGo View Post
I found a picture of the new Toshiba spokesman.

you give them too much credit.

toshibas spokesperson is actually in the third picture down on this site.

and this is for serious, it is not a joke, that is their spokesperson, a true space cadet.


http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/hd...rek-1217.shtml
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:23 PM   #9
Marine Mike Marine Mike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stockstar1138 View Post
you give them too much credit.

toshibas spokesperson is actually in the third picture down on this site.

and this is for serious, it is not a joke, that is their spokesperson, a true space cadet.


http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/hd...rek-1217.shtml
Thats so sad. I really do feel sorry for any supporter of Toshiba as they clearly do not realize they have lost.



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Old 06-18-2008, 11:32 PM   #10
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What many people don't realize is that any image upscaling technology that Toshiba invents can be applied to Blu-ray itself. Just wait till you see upscaled Blu-ray at 2160P!
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Old 06-18-2008, 11:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shido View Post
Trying to improve up-converting will only serve to confuse the market and delay blu-ray adoption though. The idea right now is to entice people to buy their new movies solely on blu-ray, but if J6P gets the idea that his regular DVDs look just as good as blu-ray when super up-converted, what incentive would they have to purchase blu-ray movies at a higher price point? More effort should be put into increasing the quality and interactivity of blu-ray instead.
I absolutely agree! Why would you buy a dvd, and put it in a blu-ray player in the first place? The whole point is to "move up" to the next generation of media.With prices coming down slightly (comparable to a collectors dvd edition) It doesn't make any sense to waste your money on dvd's.(most people given the choice would spend 5 bucks more for the collectors dvd any ways).Once the world is ALL 2.0, and uncompressed, you would be insane to not try it out for yourself!
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Old 06-18-2008, 11:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptGreedle View Post
If the PS3 can add a super up-converter in a future update, it would only make people watching DVDs happier. Since it would be an update, it would not be something that would confuse people. Plus it would be a good weapon against toshiba, not that we really need it

I think SUC tech will be too pricey to start out, in that Blu-ray will be able to match it. Plus, toshiba is again only one company, there are a slew of companies making blu-ray. Toshiba is just trying to keep DVD alive longer.
If they do this, they are only going to make themselves look even worse to retailers and consumers.
Why does everyone think that a firmware upgrade is the answer to every problem..........There are just some(many) things that can't be fixed with a FW upgrade. Yeeeeeeesh!
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Old 06-19-2008, 12:02 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.hidef View Post
Why does everyone think that a firmware upgrade is the answer to every problem..........There are just some(many) things that can't be fixed with a FW upgrade. Yeeeeeeesh!
I would suspect these are mostly young people that have only lived in a Windows world.
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Old 06-19-2008, 12:38 AM   #14
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Cool Samsung 1200 has a Very Good Upconversion Chip!

No all stand-alone Blu-ray players have so-so Upconversion. My Samsung 1200 may be a tad slow in getting firmware upgrades (However, they have issued 4 updates this year alone, with the latest update was on June 9th), but the 1200 have a VERY GOOD Upconversion chip (HQV). Even when folks were slamming the Sammy, they would give it rave reviews on that feature.

As to why people would stick a standard DVD in their Blu-ray player:

1. A very good reason is not all old DVDs have been issued in Blu yet. Take Lord of the Rings or the Matrix for example.

2. A good selling point to potential Blu buyers is the fact that they DON'T have to get rid of their OLD DVDs. Of course we know that sooner or later they will, but they do not have to.
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Old 06-19-2008, 02:28 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by mr.hidef View Post
Why does everyone think that a firmware upgrade is the answer to every problem..........There are just some(many) things that can't be fixed with a FW upgrade. Yeeeeeeesh!
Sony has spoiled us with the PS3. They've added a heck of a lot of great stuff... with more coming. A great model of a living product.
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Old 06-19-2008, 02:32 AM   #16
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SUC is for those that want to stay in the past. Why would I want SUC on an HDTV when I can have true HD? The entire point of an HD format is to resell movies in HD. Are studios supposed to sit on their ass and not make money selling catalog titles in HD?

SUC serves no purpose for any true HT enthusiast who is looking to obtain the best PQ in their home. SUC Sucks.
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Old 06-19-2008, 02:57 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kent View Post
What many people don't realize is that any image upscaling technology that Toshiba invents can be applied to Blu-ray itself. Just wait till you see upscaled Blu-ray at 2160P!
No. I think we all know what SUC is. We just choose not to want it.
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Old 06-19-2008, 04:03 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shido View Post
if J6P gets the idea that his regular DVDs look just as good as blu-ray when super up-converted, what incentive would they have to purchase blu-ray movies at a higher price point?.
Audio quality for one thing. Things being in HD now is not only about picture quality it is about audio quality as well. This whole super upconverting thing might sell well at first but people will soon realize that they are missing half the picture so to speak with non hd audio! there is no way a regular dual layer dvd could hold a true hd sound track.

i do agree though that the ps3 and stand alone players do not need SUC, the time is coming for dvd to be laid to rest so it can be with it's vhs siblings in the big movie store in the sky!

the only reason toshiba is pursuing this whole suc thing is because of dvd royalties. Toshiba makes millions from royalties from the sale of regular dvd'd and if blu ray conquers the market they will lose a substantial amount of income
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Old 06-19-2008, 04:14 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by tron3 View Post
... if only to shut Toshiba up and beat them at their own game. They lost the war and now are playing politics in an effort to hurt blu-ray sales.
The game is already won, and on our terms (TRUE HD media). What's the point in licensing technology from Toshiba to include in a format that said company fought against (and continues to do so).

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Originally Posted by tron3 View Post
Sure, our BD players offer up conversion now, but with exception of the PS3, most of it is pretty lack luster.
Personally, I would place the Samsung BD-P1200 and Denon DVD-3800BDCI way above the PS3... both of which use Silicon Optix chipsets for scaling. Toshiba has yet to put SRT up against Silicon Optix or similar quality scaling chips from Anchor Bay, Sigma Designs, etc. They also have not shown it alongside a TRUE HD source. Wonder why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tron3 View Post
So, improve the up conversion ability of blu-ray players. Consumers will be happier, have a better product, and Toshiba will finally have to shut up. Better yet, license the Toshiba technology since it is so good. Maybe being part of blu-ray indirectly will help them warm up to it.
I'm all for including better upconversion of DVD sources within BD players, but why on earth would anyone in the BDA want to put even more money in Toshiba's pocket? (They already are paying for DVD playback functionality.) As for the "since it's so good" bit, just because something is being marketed as the "second coming" doesn't mean it actually is. SuperResolution technology and algoirthms have been around for a long time now... it's definitely not anything Toshiba created. They just rewrote the algorithms to take advantage of the Cell processor.

At any rate, SuperResolution technology is great at certain things... but it requires each successive shot to be taken from a very slightly different position than the last in order to potentially get a slightly different image than was captured in the previous frame. That's why it is used by NASA to take higher resolution still photos of deep space objects. By moving the camera position very slightly between each frame they can capture additional data that can be used to approximate a higher resolution single image.

Obviosuly, on DVD (or SDTV) that's not normally the case. You can analyze the surrounding frames for additional information, but if the camera is stationary, there's really not going to be much additional information to get. At BEST, SuperResolution applied to video like this can be marginally better than other forms of upscaling that analyze only the current frame. Toshiba's implementation might be that good, but since they have only showed it up against an SD image, I'm betting that they are going to be lucky to achieve Silicon Optix/Anchor Bay/Signma Designs quality results under the best of circumstances.

Regardless of the final product they deliver, they'll never be anywhere close to actual Blu-ray quality and their development efforts on this front are just an attempt to delay the inevitable transition to the technology they have no IP interest in.
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Old 06-19-2008, 04:40 PM   #20
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Blu-ray is fine as is. Adding another level of "super upscaling" will just slow down the adoption rate for Blu-ray, and I don't think any of us want to see that happen. There's already too many people out there who think DVD upscaling is "good enough."

Why give those consumers or any manufacturers (especially Toshiba) any additional reason to not continue progressing toward full Blu-ray standardization for home media? It would be a bit of a misstep that the BDA can't afford to take.

Let Toshiba wallow in their own game of smoke and mirrors. Don't lend any credence to it.
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