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Old 01-29-2015, 07:03 AM   #1
amoergosum amoergosum is offline
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The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has apparently sounded the death knell for 3D movies, according to a leaked PowerPoint slide that purports to show the near-finalised specifications for its next-generation Ultra HD Blu-ray format.



According to the slide, which was posted by Japanese tech site AV Watch, the soon-to-be-released Ultra HD Blu-ray format ensures that future media will be able to handle higher resolution content of up to 3840×2160, plus higher frame rates of up to 60fps. In addition it will also support a much wider colour gamut than the current Blu-Ray disc format, up to Rec.2020 or BT2020 colour space, 10-bit colour depth, and a peak video bit-rate of 100Mbps.

While it’s great news for anyone who’s itching to get their hands on native 4K content to watch, the proposed specs won’t please everyone – because there seems to be no mention whatsoever of 3D in ultra high-definition (UHD) resolution.

Admittedly 3D TV has proven itself to be a bit of a lame duck in the living room – it’s not as if there’s legions of fans out there screaming for it, but this piece of news will further aggravate the few aficionados of stereoscopic films out there. The implication is that viewers will be forced to choose between watching their movies at either 4K in 2D, or regular full HD resolution in 3D, despite the fact that HDMI 2.0 has more than enough bandwidth to support 3-D at 4K Ultra HD resolution.

That may be so, but given the overall disappointing reception 3D has had among consumers, it’s hardly surprising. The overall consensus with most home viewers is that 3D just doesn’t quite cut the mustard, mainly because no one enjoys wearing those ridiculous goggles while sitting on the couch. In other words, movie makers just can’t be bothered persevering with something that few people like, which means the current 1080p frame-packed 3D Blu-rays will be the highest resolution for whatever handful of 3D fans left…
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:08 AM   #2
Falaskan Falaskan is offline
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Guess if I want a 4K player, I'll have to keep my old one for 3D too. If I had to pick between 3D and 4K, I'd pick 3D. There is just some jaw-dropping 3D out there that I will never grow tired of.
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:55 AM   #3
milwtom milwtom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falaskan View Post
Guess if I want a 4K player, I'll have to keep my old one for 3D too. If I had to pick between 3D and 4K, I'd pick 3D. There is just some jaw-dropping 3D out there that I will never grow tired of.
I have to agree. I have a 4k 8700 Samsung that I thoroughly enjoy the 3d viewing.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:19 AM   #4
Jimmy Smith Jimmy Smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falaskan View Post
Guess if I want a 4K player, I'll have to keep my old one for 3D too. If I had to pick between 3D and 4K, I'd pick 3D. There is just some jaw-dropping 3D out there that I will never grow tired of.
No Ultra HD players should play 1080p Blu-Ray 3Ds just fine. There are two problems with 4k 3D. One is most 4k televisions are polarized and thus half the resolution of 3D video anyway and an even bigger problem is that the vast majority of 3D movies have 2k digital finishes and a 4k 3D presentation would require an expensive re rendering most studios probably won't invest in. Also 4k 3D can always be added to the spec later just as it was for 1080p Bluray
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:34 AM   #5
AK65 AK65 is offline
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What does the HDR EOTF and static metadata standards they have there mean?
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:45 AM   #6
Geoff D Geoff D is online now
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Heh. I love the way they've keystoned that image to make it look like an off angle photo, when the actual 'leaked' slides are available to see here and have been for a couple of weeks: http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/s...13_683374.html

Anyhoo, this is old news in the 4K BD thread and it's no surprise. I've been saying for the longest time that there's no theatrical or home standard for 4K 3D and, according to the BDA, that situation isn't gonna change any time soon.

Me, I'd take 4K flat every time. I do love 3D, really I do, but I've never been able to see it at it's best on the various 3D TVs that I've bought over the years (passive is great but half res, active looks better but has sooooo much crosstalk) and wearing glasses already makes wearing the extra goggles less than comfortable. If this is the beginning of the end, then so be it.
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:38 AM   #7
Jimmy Smith Jimmy Smith is offline
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Another thing worth noting is that the present HEVC spec also lacks a 3D standard similar to the MVC. Supposedly it will be finalized this summer

My guess is 2160p 3D will come in a couple years
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:59 AM   #8
Geoff D Geoff D is online now
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By then the whole WCG/HDR thing should be in full swing, so perhaps people wouldn't be averse to upgrading their gear again for 4K 3D at the same time (that's if 3D is still included by then). But the studios and cinemas have got to get theatrical 4K 3D going first, never mind in the home...
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Old 01-29-2015, 11:44 AM   #9
Jimmy Smith Jimmy Smith is offline
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The lack of a 3D spec limits this formats title selection. With 3D being a big part of most recent blockbusters and many future ones the lack of it limits this format more ironically to older films
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Old 01-29-2015, 12:53 PM   #10
Dylan34 Dylan34 is offline
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I'm just happy about the other specs. I like 3-D but it's not something I watch everyday. I'm sure 3-D specs for 4K will be added at a later date, the same way it was done with blu-ray. It will still play 2K 3-D blus so all is ok for now. Like another poster stated above, 3-D is only being finished in 2k as of now anyway so it's not the biggest of deals right now that the BDA didn't add it to the players right out of the gate.
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:15 PM   #11
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I swore that my next TV would be 3D but without 4K in 3D I won't be buying one, on saying that I doubt I will buy another TV as I intend to buy a projector. A 3D 4K PC monitor is another matter though, that is something I would like this year.

I think 4K 3D is inevitable it just may take some time.

What ate the chances of a new cinema 3D technology? Something that replaces RealD?

Didn't the Super 3D format from the 80's that had the likes of Jaws 3D, Amityville 3D and Friday The 13th part 3D release on it have more things popping out of the screen? Whereas RealD has more depth to it?

I think that RealD may be replaced at the very least it will see an upgrade.
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:36 PM   #12
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There is more money to be made by rolling things out in stages.
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Old 01-30-2015, 04:21 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan34 View Post
I'm sure 3-D specs for 4K will be added at a later date, the same way it was done with blu-ray. It will still play 2K 3-D blus so all is ok for now.
I'm wondering about the possibility that some manufs' displays (and players) will support the future 4k 3D format but not the legacy 1080 3D format. Not unlike all current BD players not supporting 1080 3D . . .?
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:54 AM   #14
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They can't build in support for something that doesn't exist. Panasonic's slides about the UHD BD spec make it quite clear that UHD 3D is not part of it (IIRC there isn't even an HEVC profile for 3D yet) so if/when they do it then a new player and new display will be required, just as with 3D BD.

I should think that 3D BD will be supported on the players though, it makes no sense to leave it out because it'll only cost pennies more to include it on whatever BD decoding silicon they put in the UHD players.
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:37 AM   #15
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Re ^^

But many of the same parties that are (read: should be) working on 4k BD are involved/stakeholders in 4k 3D BD. So I guess part of what I'm wondering aloud about is why is 4k BD launching without a 3D component already baked in. It's not my understanding that the (frame packing?) standard for 1080 3D BD was predicated on the theatrical 3D standard getting codified first.

Hmmmm on "I should think that 3D BD will be supported on the players." English (British?) phraseology aside, I might have agreed before the race to the bottom in terms of build quality and feature sets that aren't streaming-related that began circa 2011 . . . but not now. There has been too much head scratching, cheap behavior by some of the same BDA manufs in recent years. Say what we might about the high resolution music formats being niche, 4k 3D BD is pretty darn niche also, yes? So I think it's somewhat precedential that--despite it only costing "pennies" to include the decoding capability in the chipset--DVD-Audio is largely not supported in current players; even more tellingly, Sony can't be bothered to support their own SA-CD format in all of their own BD players; 1080 3D is not universally embraced.

Meanwhile, catalog support by the majors has become so moribund the marketplace increasingly looks in the past 18 months like a return to the LD days: boutiques like Mill Creek, Olive and Twilight Time are doing licensed releases of catalogers moreso than the original releasing studio/rights holders. And new theatricals are seeing other technological "gimmicks" in the exhibition biz. Tomorrow night I'll be seeing Project Almanac in 4DX (not 3D) at a huge cinema in downtown Los Angeles . . .

All of those data points give me pause about facile 4k 3D support in "UHD" players . . . and then there's the question of how far the slide of interest in packaged media will have grown, say, 18 months from now . . .
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Old 01-30-2015, 11:05 AM   #16
Geoff D Geoff D is online now
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But DVDA and SACD were far more niche than 3D BD ever was, and besides, they're not actual BD formats which could be easily integrated onto one piece of silicon, unlike 3D BD. Edit: (Bear in mind I'm talking about 1080p 3D compatibility, NOT 4K 3D, because the latter doesn't exist.)

That's why I (should) think regular 3D BD is a lock for UHD BD players, because they won't lowball the BD compatibility for the sake of saving a few bucks in what will be an expensive piece of hardware.

Last edited by Geoff D; 01-30-2015 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:06 PM   #17
Paul.R.S Paul.R.S is offline
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Quote:
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But DVDA and SACD were far more niche than 3D BD ever was, and besides, they're not actual BD formats which could be easily integrated onto one piece of silicon, unlike 3D BD. Edit: (Bear in mind I'm talking about 1080p 3D compatibility, NOT 4K 3D, because the latter doesn't exist.)
I think I understand your larger point and don't wanna get too deep into the weeds here, but I think it's arguable whether DVD-A and/or SA-CD are "far more niche than 3D BD ever was" (even if we set aside that hybrid SA-CDs are already in the hands of folks who may not know it). Yes, 3D BD had the added visibility afforded it by theatrical 3D. But this site alone evidences the abject contempt many have for 3D in any form. I think many are still unaware of high rez audio media. The difference between ignorance of something's existence versus knowing of its existence and hating it makes me think it's hard to quantify/compare which is more niche.

Some of my conversations and e-mails with OPPO engineers regarding what Mediatek was and wasn't willing/able to do with their "system on a chip" chipsets complicated my understanding of what "could be easily integrated onto one piece of silicon."

Quote:
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That's why I (should) think regular 3D BD is a lock for UHD BD players, because they won't lowball the BD compatibility for the sake of saving a few bucks in what will be an expensive piece of hardware.
But the gear won't stay expensive forever, right? We're of course both speculating but I think it's going to be a matter of how much traction 1080 3D BD media has in the marketplace, oh, 18 months from now. If the studios aren't supporting it any longer and/or 1080 3D BD media isn't moving a lot of units (and here we're back to the macro issue of the future of packaged media and hardware support of legacy formats), we've seen PLENTY of precedent for the manufs absolutely "lowball[ing] . . . for the sake of saving a few bucks." Heck that's arguably a textbook definition of what mainstream businesses do.

Boutiques are another story. Which leads me to predict that it will be OPPO that supports legacy 1080 3D BD in their 4k players. I think Sony, Panasonic et al. may support it at first but then they will move away from it with time and/or only include it in their top of the line decks.
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:47 PM   #18
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Hey let's include a spec for something that does not exist, or how about another where there are only 3 films in the format that had a 2k di......
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:34 PM   #19
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Hey let's include a spec for something that does not exist, or how about another where there are only 3 films in the format that had a 2k di......
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:12 PM   #20
Geoff D Geoff D is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

Boutiques are another story. Which leads me to predict that it will be OPPO that supports legacy 1080 3D BD in their 4k players. I think Sony, Panasonic et al. may support it at first but then they will move away from it with time and/or only include it in their top of the line decks.
That's all I'm saying, it'll be in there to begin with because every piece of debut hardware is premium gear that's always expensive as **** and lowballing UHD BD players on the normal BD playback front won't make any sense whatsoever, and if I were them I wouldn't want to give trepidatious buyers any excuse not to replace their current players outright (I doubt it'll have DVDA/SACD though ).

As you say, "the gear won't stay expensive forever" so of course they'll look to shear off certain features and functions (like some modern BD players with an HDMI and an optical output and nothing else) as the UHD player ranges diversify, but 3D BD will be there to begin with. By the time that the ranges do hopefully expand and the costs come down, 3D will either be dead as a doornail or 4K 3D will be waiting in the wings, either way the players will be different from the original UHD decks re: 3D.
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