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Old 01-21-2009, 05:43 AM   #1
Damage Inc. Damage Inc. is offline
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Question Framerate?

Hello,

I'm new here, but I have a (probably quite unusual) question right off the bat:


I was in a store recently and I was actually looking at some TVs for no reason,
besides wondering how they look today.
Anyway, apparently they were all connected to Blu-Ray-players and playing BRDs.
Now, I noticed something, and it totally freaked me out, that the images/films looked like they were "too fast".
And I don't mean in time, but as if there were too many frames per second.
You know how that can make something look too "fast" or "fluent", I don't know what to call it.

But why was I seeing that?
Is that because of the screens (LCD/Plasma or their specifications) or because of HD-content?
Because that was NOT looking good, films are supposed to look a bit "jittery" even though unnoticeable.
But at least with a limited amount of frames I guess is the technique.


I hope you can inform me on this.

Greetings,
"Many great films fail and many shitty movies make a lot of money." - John Landis

BD Wishlist: - Prince of Egypt - Hunchback of Notre Dame - Beverly Hills Cop - Bowfinger - Multiplicity - One Hour Photo - Series: - Over There - Flashpoint - Monk - Friends - My Name Is Earl - Music: - Maiden Rock In Rio - MetallicA S&M - Godsmack Changes - Ramms+ein Berlin - SlipKnoT Disasterpieces - Ozzy At Budokan - Satriani SF
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:49 AM   #2
brett_day brett_day is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damage Inc. View Post
Hello,

I'm new here, but I have a (probably quite unusual) question right off the bat:


I was in a store recently and I was actually looking at some TVs for no reason,
besides wondering how they look today.
Anyway, apparently they were all connected to Blu-Ray-players and playing BRDs.
Now, I noticed something, and it totally freaked me out, that the images/films looked like they were "too fast".
And I don't mean in time, but as if there were too many frames per second.
You know how that can make something look too "fast" or "fluent", I don't know what to call it.

But why was I seeing that?
Is that because of the screens (LCD/Plasma or their specifications) or because of HD-content?
Because that was NOT looking good, films are supposed to look a bit "jittery" even though unnoticeable.
But at least with a limited amount of frames I guess is the technique.


I hope you can inform me on this.

Greetings,
sounds like you were looking at a 120hz LCD witht motionflow turned on. this can give the picture a very unnatural look and feel
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:55 AM   #3
Damage Inc. Damage Inc. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brett_day View Post
sounds like you were looking at a 120hz LCD witht motionflow turned on. this can give the picture a very unnatural look and feel
Hm, that could indeed be it, I was reading like specifications on the TV-frames
and there were a lot of ones of 100Hz and up and like "special technologies".
I sure hope it's something like that.

So, there is nothing altered about HD/BR besides preserved quality right?
It's not like they pump out more frames or "extra smooth" stuff or anything like that?
"Many great films fail and many shitty movies make a lot of money." - John Landis

BD Wishlist: - Prince of Egypt - Hunchback of Notre Dame - Beverly Hills Cop - Bowfinger - Multiplicity - One Hour Photo - Series: - Over There - Flashpoint - Monk - Friends - My Name Is Earl - Music: - Maiden Rock In Rio - MetallicA S&M - Godsmack Changes - Ramms+ein Berlin - SlipKnoT Disasterpieces - Ozzy At Budokan - Satriani SF
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:00 AM   #4
Rob J in WNY Rob J in WNY is offline
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Welcome to the forums.

What you may have seen was HD video being displayed on LCD televisions with "120Hz" panels. I own one, myself. Standard video displays work at 60Hz (image refreshed 60 times per second). 120Hz displays will double it in an effort to smoothen video and reduce or eliminate the effects of "3:2 pulldown" (a process by which 24 frames-per-second film can be correctly time-aligned to a 60Hz television display rate).

It's not so much the 120Hz refresh rate on the screen that is causing the ultra-smooth motion you are probably seeing, but rather the "motion enhancing" settings incorporated into 120Hz televisions. These will "interpolate" the "in-between" frame images and display them along with the original content to "fill in" the space in between the normal frames, causing considerable smoothening of the motion. While it does its task effectively, the downside is what some people (such as yourself) find as an objectionable "live video" type of motion to standard film presentations. Also, the motion smoothing software, when driven to its highest settings, often introduces motion "artificats" into the video - content which is not original. These are often seen around high-contrast edges in motion across the screen.

Fortunately, one can turn down, or even off, the "motion enhancers" to leave out the interpolated frames, bringing the video back to an original appearance. The 120Hz screens, however, always run at 120Hz. That's an unchangeable aspect of the units (not necessarily a bad thing). Many passionate cinema enthusiasts with 120Hz LCD panel TVs often keep the motion enhancing software shut off completely. I generally keep mine in the middle setting for Blu-ray content.

Modern display technology as reached a certain level of excellence nowadays. Just about every brand of flat panel television out there will produce an exceptional picture. We've come a long way since CRTs, and there will no doubt be considerable advancements in the near-future as well.
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:01 AM   #5
WriteSimply WriteSimply is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damage Inc. View Post
So, there is nothing altered about HD/BR besides preserved quality right?
It's not like they pump out more frames or "extra smooth" stuff or anything like that?
No nothing like that. BD stores HD in 24fps for film, and 25fps (PAL countries) or 30fps (for NTSC) for video. What you saw are "enhancements" by the TV themselves.


fuad
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:04 PM   #6
Damage Inc. Damage Inc. is offline
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Ah yeah, I already thought the thing happening was exactly as Rob J described.

I was just staring at movies like "Indy 4" and newer ones like that.
And even though it looked really sharp it was not pleasant to look at.
I mean, it looked "live" as if it was a local or basically a TV-recording.
You know, where everything is more... "clear" or fluent and calm.
I don't think they are like that in the US for example much, some shows also have more of that "movie-effect".
But I guess you get the point.
So as if it's more there, more presence and clarity unlike the more "gritty" film-styles.

Well, I'm glad that cleared up.
Now I have yet to see a good presentation in real life.
Maybe I should just ask them to turn off the motion-flow for me.
Or let me tweak the screens or something...


Thanks,
"Many great films fail and many shitty movies make a lot of money." - John Landis

BD Wishlist: - Prince of Egypt - Hunchback of Notre Dame - Beverly Hills Cop - Bowfinger - Multiplicity - One Hour Photo - Series: - Over There - Flashpoint - Monk - Friends - My Name Is Earl - Music: - Maiden Rock In Rio - MetallicA S&M - Godsmack Changes - Ramms+ein Berlin - SlipKnoT Disasterpieces - Ozzy At Budokan - Satriani SF
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:39 PM   #7
prankster prankster is offline
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i personally do not like motion-flow either. looks very unnatural
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:54 PM   #8
TooBlu TooBlu is offline
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I went from a Panny 800U to the 8 series Samsung then back to the Panny 800U... I had the best of both worlds, as i miss the LCD/120hz samsung for the VIDEO GAMING. I get the best possiable correct picture with THX on with SIZE 2 and with the 48hz OFF(bad flicker). I watched INDY4 on both sets and liked it so much better on the Panny than the Samsung...i did tweek the sammy set and i liked it with the motion OFF just 1080p@24. but the Panny is where true BD is at!!
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:00 PM   #9
prankster prankster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooBlu View Post
I went from a Panny 800U to the 8 series Samsung then back to the Panny 800U... I had the best of both worlds, as i miss the LCD/120hz samsung for the VIDEO GAMING. I get the best possiable correct picture with THX on with SIZE 2 and with the 48hz OFF(bad flicker). I watched INDY4 on both sets and liked it so much better on the Panny than the Samsung...i did tweek the sammy set and i liked it with the motion OFF just 1080p@24. but the Panny is where true BD is at!!
indeed, the panny is hard to beat, especially by an lcd. too bad i have two samsung lcd's
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Old 01-24-2009, 01:29 AM   #10
yungl1nk yungl1nk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damage Inc. View Post
Ah yeah, I already thought the thing happening was exactly as Rob J described.

I was just staring at movies like "Indy 4" and newer ones like that.
And even though it looked really sharp it was not pleasant to look at.
I mean, it looked "live" as if it was a local or basically a TV-recording.
You know, where everything is more... "clear" or fluent and calm.
I don't think they are like that in the US for example much, some shows also have more of that "movie-effect".
But I guess you get the point.
So as if it's more there, more presence and clarity unlike the more "gritty" film-styles.

Well, I'm glad that cleared up.
Now I have yet to see a good presentation in real life.
Maybe I should just ask them to turn off the motion-flow for me.
Or let me tweak the screens or something...


Thanks,
wow. thats exactly wat i think about it. i kinda of like the effect but i kinda dnt. movies on a 120hz tv look so clear and sharp and lifelike that it kinda looks "uncinematic". the best to describe it is that it looks like a stage play or something. but some movies look prty good in 120hz like Eagle Eye.
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Old 01-24-2009, 03:39 PM   #11
Damage Inc. Damage Inc. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yungl1nk View Post
wow. thats exactly wat i think about it. i kinda of like the effect but i kinda dnt. movies on a 120hz tv look so clear and sharp and lifelike that it kinda looks "uncinematic". the best to describe it is that it looks like a stage play or something. but some movies look prty good in 120hz like Eagle Eye.
Yeah, kind of like that.
I think the frequency isn't really the culprit though,
it's probably more the techniques they use with it, such as the "motionflow"-thing.
Because I have a monitor and a TV both running at 100Hz.
And however still with DVDs if watching a movie, it looks... you know, as it is was made.

Then again, I still have those "tube"-technologies, a CRT-monitor and... I would guess a "CRT-TV"(?).
So, it might also be the fact that they're using those liquid-technologies for the flatpanel-screens.
Which have been iffy most of the time with movements and such things.
"Many great films fail and many shitty movies make a lot of money." - John Landis

BD Wishlist: - Prince of Egypt - Hunchback of Notre Dame - Beverly Hills Cop - Bowfinger - Multiplicity - One Hour Photo - Series: - Over There - Flashpoint - Monk - Friends - My Name Is Earl - Music: - Maiden Rock In Rio - MetallicA S&M - Godsmack Changes - Ramms+ein Berlin - SlipKnoT Disasterpieces - Ozzy At Budokan - Satriani SF
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