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Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Audio > Speakers


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Old 03-04-2009, 06:13 PM   #21
prerich prerich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corpboy View Post
I think I only understood maybe 10% of what all that said.

Let me ask this: if a horizontal center speaker is so bad, why oh why do I see so many of them specifically built to be oriented horizontally? It seem so self-defeating in nature.
One reason - looks - its pleasing to the eye. How many people would put another tower in the center of their room? (I did ) but that's not the norm.
Infinity Comp Prelude P-FR, Infinity Comp Overture 1 - center & front hght, 2 Infinity QPS-1 side, Infinty P-QPS rear hght, Infinity fps-1000 rear, Infinity Outrigger Jr. overheads, 2 AE AV15 Power Cube subwoofers, SVS 16-46 CS (X2) 2 DCM Subs (rear), Denon AVR-X4300H (front hght and Prepro), Yamaha MX-830 (rear hght), B&K 200.7 Reference Amp, Behringer NU4-6000 (subs),miniDSP 2X4, BD HTPC, Tube DAC, NAS 20tb , Da-lite 16:9 106", Vivitek hk2288 4k proj, TCL Roku 4K TV.
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Old 03-04-2009, 06:16 PM   #22
prerich prerich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew664 View Post
I know what you mean!

I would have to think the horizontal nature of these speakers are simply due to the placement - directly under your viewing source. A "vertically challenged" speaker works best for most viewing set ups.

Also, Big Daddy - great info. I had no idea. How audible is the difference though?
Very!!!! When I left horizontal center channels - I never looked back. Now my front array must be three of the same speakers. I wan't nothing less (unless it's that 200 pound B&W with some 802D's, then I would consider a horizontal - but it's not really horizontal - look at the design)
Infinity Comp Prelude P-FR, Infinity Comp Overture 1 - center & front hght, 2 Infinity QPS-1 side, Infinty P-QPS rear hght, Infinity fps-1000 rear, Infinity Outrigger Jr. overheads, 2 AE AV15 Power Cube subwoofers, SVS 16-46 CS (X2) 2 DCM Subs (rear), Denon AVR-X4300H (front hght and Prepro), Yamaha MX-830 (rear hght), B&K 200.7 Reference Amp, Behringer NU4-6000 (subs),miniDSP 2X4, BD HTPC, Tube DAC, NAS 20tb , Da-lite 16:9 106", Vivitek hk2288 4k proj, TCL Roku 4K TV.
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:30 PM   #23
drummerboy_2002 drummerboy_2002 is offline
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Ok, I'm back to my original confusion. How would raising the tweeter out of the mid array plane help with lobing? The issue is with two drivers playing the same frequency at the same time (the mids). The only place this would happen with the tweeter is in the small range where the crossover slopes overlap. Otherwise only the tweeter or mids are playing, not both.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:04 AM   #24
Clark Kent Clark Kent is offline
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Another great reference post, Big Daddy.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:14 AM   #25
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drummerboy_2002 View Post
Ok, I'm back to my original confusion. How would raising the tweeter out of the mid array plane help with lobing? The issue is with two drivers playing the same frequency at the same time (the mids). The only place this would happen with the tweeter is in the small range where the crossover slopes overlap. Otherwise only the tweeter or mids are playing, not both.
Low frequency and high frequency sound waves have different radiation pattern. As a result low frequency drivers (midrange woofers) and high frequency drivers (tweeters) have intrinsically different radiation patterns. At the crossover point, the directivity of the drivers changes. Interference between the drivers at this point causes a dip in the level around the crossover frequency, with a peak above it. This will result in muddiness of the sound and movement of sound stage.

In reality, we have interference between three or more drivers, particularly at the crossover frequencies. Moreover, there is a significant interation between horizontal center speakers with the floor and the ceiling.

Remember that lower frequency sound waves have very long wavelengths and are omnidirectional and are not affected as much. The higher frequency sound waves have smaller wavelengths and tend to be more uni-directional with a much smaller soundfield. Interference in the upper mid-range frequencies up to and above the crossover frequency normally create most of the problems and damage sound clarity and imaging.

A vertical arrangement of the tweeter and midrange drivers will help imaging, clarity of the sound, and will increase vertical and horizontal dispersion. In addition, a lower crossover frequency point and a higher order crossovers network will help.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:16 AM   #26
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kent View Post
Another great reference post, Big Daddy.
Thanks. It is a lot of hard work. I am gradually, adding more material to the original post.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:26 AM   #27
crazyBLUE crazyBLUE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prerich View Post
Circuit City just had one of your Bostons for sale - one only - for 179!!!! I didn't know you where in the market! You may have missed this deal !!!

Big Daddy - you know I have preached vertical center channels for the longest - thank you for putting into words my reasoning behind it !!!!
Today at work I was thinking about this (several times) & I remembered That prerich's set-up has the same 3 front's ! I went in the office at lunch Just to check & sure enough ~ 3 heresy's or 3 Snells All the same fronts!

So I know my next buy !!
Brent

Changing to 4K ~ Got the 60" TV. Next the player, movies. Then the sound system ~ Again LOL........
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:28 AM   #28
ozzman ozzman is offline
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For some reason i knew this,but never dived in and look for facts like you did Dad.Awesome job.

I want to just say with the center i have the first thing i thought of was movie theaters have the speaker(s) behind the screen Because thats the effect i feel iam getting with my center.

I know that this can sounds ridulas but really thats how it sounds too me.

Now in the case of my center what are you opinions on it(vertical is not an option).Remember my fronts are timber matched to my center ,so right away it sounded Better then my PSB ,then i noticed the fullness of the center(giving me the effect that it was coming from the screen and above)Is this all in my head ,Iam i wishing this to be my truth,Have i gone a little nuts LOL

Give it to me straight Doc

http://www.miragespeakers.com/na-en/...pecifications/
Samsung PN50A450 50" Plasma
Yamaha RX-V3800 & Yamaha BD-S2900
Marantz SA8001 Super Audio CD Player & Playstation 3
Mirage OMD-C2 (CENTER ) , Mirage M-5si (FRONT)
Paradigm Reference Studio 20 V4 (REARS AND B-SURROUNDS)
Paradigm DSP-3100 (2-SUBS)
Panamax M4300-PM & ML 4200 (Protection)
Technical Pro EQ-B1700 , Harmony 1100 Universal

Last edited by ozzman; 03-05-2009 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:33 AM   #29
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzman View Post
For some reason i knew this,but never dived in and look for facts like you did Dad.Awesome job.

I want to just say with the center i have the first thing i thought of was movie theaters have the speaker(s) behind the screen Because thats the effect iam feeling iam getting with my center.

I know that this can sounds ridulas but really thats how it sounds too me.

Now in the case of my center what are you opinions on it(vertical is not an option).Remember my fronts are timber matched to my center ,so right away it sounded Better then my PSB ,then i noticed the fullness of the center(giving me the effect that it was coming from the screen and above)Is this all in my head ,Iam i wishing this to be my truth,Have i gone a little nuts LOL

Give it to me straight Doc

http://www.miragespeakers.com/na-en/...pecifications/
Mirage speakers have the unique three dimensional sound field. You should be ok. The only thing missing is an invitation to us for an audition.

It would be great if we could put our center speaker behind our TV. A few companies are working on transparent screens. Maybe, in a few years we will have another excuse to upgrade. It never stops.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:36 AM   #30
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyBLUE View Post
Today at work I was thinking about this (several times) & I remembered That prerich's set-up has the same 3 front's ! I went in the office at lunch Just to check & sure enough ~ 3 heresy's or 3 Snells All the same fronts!

So I know my next buy !!
I knew that you have been itching to find an excuse to upgrade something. When I created the thread, I had a feeling that it will have a detrimental effect on people's bank account.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:47 AM   #31
mdabb mdabb is offline
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I have only skimmed through it so far but as usual, great job Big D !!!
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:49 AM   #32
crazyBLUE crazyBLUE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
I knew that you have been itching to find an excuse to upgrade something. When I created the thread, I had a feeling that it will have a detrimental effect on people's bank account.
I thought six towers was enough , Know I'm going to have seven ! That's what I like about upgrading ~ It just makes it that much better !!
Brent

Changing to 4K ~ Got the 60" TV. Next the player, movies. Then the sound system ~ Again LOL........
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:53 AM   #33
ozzman ozzman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
Mirage speakers have the unique three dimensional sound field. You should be ok. The only thing missing is an invitation to us for an audition.

It would be great if we could put our center speaker behind our TV. A few companies are working on transparent screens. Maybe, in a few years we will have another excuse to upgrade. It never stops.
I will tell you i always look forward to your threads .
Its apparent you put alot of time in them and i find you leave no room for disagreement (on my part),
which is a testimony to yourself and your work.
If anything its a learning lesson for me.

Keep them coming

Great job
Samsung PN50A450 50" Plasma
Yamaha RX-V3800 & Yamaha BD-S2900
Marantz SA8001 Super Audio CD Player & Playstation 3
Mirage OMD-C2 (CENTER ) , Mirage M-5si (FRONT)
Paradigm Reference Studio 20 V4 (REARS AND B-SURROUNDS)
Paradigm DSP-3100 (2-SUBS)
Panamax M4300-PM & ML 4200 (Protection)
Technical Pro EQ-B1700 , Harmony 1100 Universal

Last edited by ozzman; 03-05-2009 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:10 AM   #34
fupduk2 fupduk2 is offline
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Very impressive Big Daddy. I wish I would have known this a few weeks ago but it may not have made a difference due to my set up.

Nice job.
Rymarc = trailers without wheels.
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:20 AM   #35
Driver_King Driver_King is offline
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What would you say to a Polk SDA CRS speaker for a center for my SDA II's? Or should I try to find another SDA II?
My recommended setup for Home Theater Virgins:

Speakers: Polk Monitor 50's, Polk Monitor 40's, Polk CS2 Center, and eD subwoofer or
HTIB: Polk 5.1 system and
Receiver: Non-Network Onkyo TX-SR608 or Onkyo HT-RC180 Network Receiver
Monoprice-For all your cable needs...

Personal Setup + Subwoofer
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:39 AM   #36
drummerboy_2002 drummerboy_2002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
A vertical arrangement of the tweeter and midrange drivers will help imaging, clarity of the sound, and will increase vertical and horizontal dispersion. In addition, a lower crossover frequency point and a higher order crossovers network will help.
Ah, gotcha. So even with a MTM array with a 2.5 way crossover, there may be some lobing and imaging problems at the crossover. Sadly I doubt there's anything I can do about it. I've got a flat-panel sitting on a low console and will need a long and low center due to WAF.

I've read on european forums where many prefer not to even use a center and let the front right/left play double duty. What are your thoughs on this arangement?
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:46 AM   #37
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drummerboy_2002 View Post
Ah, gotcha. So even with a MTM array with a 2.5 way crossover, there may be some lobing and imaging problems at the crossover. Sadly I doubt there's anything I can do about it. I've got a flat-panel sitting on a low console and will need a long and low center due to WAF.

I've read on european forums where many prefer not to even use a center and let the front right/left play double duty. What are your thoughs on this arangement?
This is an example of German Designed speakers with 360 degree sound field. The manufacturer recommends no center speaker. I am sure your wife will love them.

The Duevel Planets omni dispersion speakers from Urban Fidelity are beautiful, exotic, sexy, and only $1,400 a pair.






HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:09 AM   #38
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Very interesting info!
I'm wondering how the Paradigm CC-390 being a 3 way center channel works out having the tweeter and 2 midrange drivers as a unit in the middle with the outer bass drivers. I have them slightly angled up since the stand for it is angled. I think it sounds good! I'm still kinda new to audio though. So is there a way to get better sound from this type of speaker?
D
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:13 AM   #39
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLS_222 View Post
Very interesting info!
I'm wondering how the Paradigm CC-390 being a 3 way center channel works out having the tweeter and 2 midrange drivers as a unit in the middle with the outer bass drivers. I have them slightly angled up since the stand for it is angled. I think it sounds good! I'm still kinda new to audio though. So is there a way to get better sound from this type of speaker?
It looks like Paradigm has already accounted for some of the problems of horizontal center speaker. You should be ok. Try it vertically and see if you can hear any difference.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:17 AM   #40
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver_King View Post
What would you say to a Polk SDA CRS speaker for a center for my SDA II's? Or should I try to find another SDA II?
The SDA CRS speakers have a very unusual design. Try them both horizontally and vertically and see if there is a major difference. Ideally, you should get another SDA II for perfect front sound stage.
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
Family Room: Mitsubishi 73" Diamond Series TV, Yamaha DSP-A3090 Rec., DirecTV HD-DVR, PS3, Zvox Speaker, 1 DIY 12" Sub.

Last edited by Big Daddy; 03-05-2009 at 03:18 AM.
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