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Old 03-05-2009, 02:40 AM   #41
Texitura Texitura is offline
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My "new" fronts are vintage KEF Reference bookshelves with a Uni-Q co-axial driver which has the tweeter in the middle of the woofer. There's no orientation: horizontal, vertical, upside down, it's all the same. For my center upgrade, I'll try to find a used Reference 100c, same principle.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:54 AM   #42
prerich prerich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzman View Post
For some reason i knew this,but never dived in and look for facts like you did Dad.Awesome job.

I want to just say with the center i have the first thing i thought of was movie theaters have the speaker(s) behind the screen Because thats the effect i feel iam getting with my center.

I know that this can sounds ridulas but really thats how it sounds too me.

Now in the case of my center what are you opinions on it(vertical is not an option).Remember my fronts are timber matched to my center ,so right away it sounded Better then my PSB ,then i noticed the fullness of the center(giving me the effect that it was coming from the screen and above)Is this all in my head ,Iam i wishing this to be my truth,Have i gone a little nuts LOL

Give it to me straight Doc

http://www.miragespeakers.com/na-en/...pecifications/
You're fine Ozz - the Mirage speakers are omni-polar a different animal altogether - you should be straight!
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:00 AM   #43
prerich prerich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver_King View Post
What would you say to a Polk SDA CRS speaker for a center for my SDA II's? Or should I try to find another SDA II?
Another different animal - remember one driver in the SDA is actual phase cancellation. When not connected with the cable - I'm told that the driver is nil, and the SDA CRS is a three-way design with a 10 inch woofer in the rear, a phase cancellation mid-range (and tweeter depending on the model) and a normal mid-range and tweeter. A vertical Monitor 7 or Monitor 10 would make a good standing center channel - but you would be ok with a CRS on a stand. I had this in mind at one time but CRS' are a rare find. A third SDA II (if you have the room) would be nice but I would more than likely go with a Monitor 7 or 10 (if you want a floor standing speaker).
Infinity Comp Prelude P-FR, Infinity Comp Overture 1 - center & front hght, 2 Infinity QPS-1 side, Infinty P-QPS rear hght, Infinity fps-1000 rear, Infinity Outrigger Jr. overheads, 2 AE AV15 Power Cube subwoofers, SVS 16-46 CS (X2) 2 DCM Subs (rear), Denon AVR-X4300H (front hght and Prepro), Yamaha MX-830 (rear hght), B&K 200.7 Reference Amp, Behringer NU4-6000 (subs),miniDSP 2X4, BD HTPC, Tube DAC, NAS 20tb , Da-lite 16:9 106", Vivitek hk2288 4k proj, TCL Roku 4K TV.
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:02 AM   #44
prerich prerich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texitura View Post
My "new" fronts are vintage KEF Reference bookshelves with a Uni-Q co-axial driver which has the tweeter in the middle of the woofer. There's no orientation: horizontal, vertical, upside down, it's all the same. For my center upgrade, I'll try to find a used Reference 100c, same principle.
The Uni-Q speakers are the acception to the rule as well as some Tannoys and Bag End - they also have coaxial mounted tweeters - as does the DCM CX-17.
Infinity Comp Prelude P-FR, Infinity Comp Overture 1 - center & front hght, 2 Infinity QPS-1 side, Infinty P-QPS rear hght, Infinity fps-1000 rear, Infinity Outrigger Jr. overheads, 2 AE AV15 Power Cube subwoofers, SVS 16-46 CS (X2) 2 DCM Subs (rear), Denon AVR-X4300H (front hght and Prepro), Yamaha MX-830 (rear hght), B&K 200.7 Reference Amp, Behringer NU4-6000 (subs),miniDSP 2X4, BD HTPC, Tube DAC, NAS 20tb , Da-lite 16:9 106", Vivitek hk2288 4k proj, TCL Roku 4K TV.
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:28 AM   #45
jomari jomari is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prerich View Post
The Uni-Q speakers are the acception to the rule as well as some Tannoys and Bag End - they also have coaxial mounted tweeters - as does the DCM CX-17.
this is duly noted on other center speakers as well. as i mentioned earlier, most companies have addressed lobing and other concerns via newer technologies. some 'claim' to have, but some definitely have proven graphs and test done not only by their company but by others as well.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:27 PM   #46
crazyBLUE crazyBLUE is offline
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Having changed my front speakers to all match , Making the center vertical instead of horizontal . There was A noticeable change !
Dialog seemed more centered to display than stretched over middle 3rd of display .
Thing's moving from one side to the other seemed to flow threw the sound stage more evenly .
Upon moving from center seating to one side the only change seemed to be, that side front was stronger because the other front was farther away , The center did not seem to change sitting off center !

Just my opiniun !
Brent

Changing to 4K ~ Got the 60" TV. Next the player, movies. Then the sound system ~ Again LOL........
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:35 AM   #47
naturephoto1 naturephoto1 is offline
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How about my Nola LCR Reference speaker ($2200 list), should this be OK?

For the new towers that are being made up, we are considering making a horizontal center channel speaker based on the old KEF design with 2 woofers on the left and 2 on the right (we expect the speaker to be 9" tall and 42" long). There will be a midrange speaker between these with the tweeter situated above the midrange. I am not sure if this will be a problem, but it will match the drivers of the big towers. In a vertical orientation, this would probably be too tall to have in front of a screen or the 50" Plasma TV.

Rich
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:14 AM   #48
Blown 4.3 Blown 4.3 is offline
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i didn't read the whole thread. i do understand the horizontal issue. i have this question.

what would happen if one were to use horizontal centers. 1 above the set, and one below ?

i have not tried this, so i don't know. but i do have extra speakers, so maybe i will.
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Old 03-06-2009, 05:26 AM   #49
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post
How about my Nola LCR Reference speaker ($2200 list), should this be OK?

For the new towers that are being made up, we are considering making a horizontal center channel speaker based on the old KEF design with 2 woofers on the left and 2 on the right (we expect the speaker to be 9" tall and 42" long). There will be a midrange speaker between these with the tweeter situated above the midrange. I am not sure if this will be a problem, but it will match the drivers of the big towers. In a vertical orientation, this would probably be too tall to have in front of a screen or the 50" Plasma TV.

Rich
It looks like they have already accounted for the problem and placed the tweeter on a different axis. However, I will bet you that if you position it vertically, it may still give you an improvement in two areas:
  • Center stage and imaging
  • Off-axis response
In most cases, a vertically placed good quality bookshelf speaker performs better than an horizontal center speaker. See Post #2.
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Last edited by Big Daddy; 03-06-2009 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 03-06-2009, 05:29 AM   #50
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blown 4.3 View Post
i didn't read the whole thread. i do understand the horizontal issue. i have this question.

what would happen if one were to use horizontal centers. 1 above the set, and one below ?

i have not tried this, so i don't know. but i do have extra speakers, so maybe i will.
Two center speakers receive the same signal and will have the phase cancellation problem. You really have to do a lot of experimantion to position them properly or mess with their wiring to change their phase.

The difference between two center speakers and the front left and right speakers is that the main speakers receive different signals (stereo).
HT Room: Panasonic PT-AE8000, Epson 1080UB Proj., Mitsubishi 65" Diamond Series HD TV, Yamaha-RX-A3010 Rec., CinePro 6-Ch. Amp. (350 W/Ch, 8 Ohm), Proton D1200 Amp., Behringer EP4000 & EPX3000 Amps., Oppo BDP-83, Sony BDP-S790, Audio Technica Tuntable, Mitsubishi S-VHS, 2 Def. Tech. Super Towers w 15" subs, 1 Def. Tech. Center & 1 Martin-Logan Center, 2 Def. Tech. Surr. & 2 PSB Surr., 2 Cadence Presence, 2 Bose 901 Rears, 2 Modified HSU 12" Subs, 1 ED DIY 12" Sub, 1 ED DIY 15" Sub, Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Equalizer, DirecTV HD, Monster HTS 5000 & APC H15 Power Conditioners.
Two-Channel Room: XiangSheng Tube Preamp., Carver TFM-45 Amp. (375 W/Ch), Behringer EPX4000 Amp., Onkyo CD player, Denon Turntable, Yamaha Tuner, 2 Vintage Polk RTA-15TL Speakers, 2 LCY 100 Super Tweeters, 2 DIY Folded Horn Super Towers with 15" Sub., 1 Modified AA HD-SUB12
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Old 03-06-2009, 06:40 AM   #51
naturephoto1 naturephoto1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
It looks like they have already accounted for the problem and placed the tweeter on a different axis. However, I will bet you that if you position it vertically, it may still give you an impriovement in two areas:
  • Center stage and imaging
  • Off-axis response
In most cases, a vertically placed good quality bookshelf speaker performs better than an horizontal center speaker. See Post #2.
I may give that a try. The Nola LCR Reference speakers are intended to be a mirror imaged L & R open baffle midrange and tweeter dipole design and they are also used as a center channel speaker.

If I find that it is an improvement, maybe we will rethink the design of the speaker to match the new tower speakers that will be made.

We are also toying with some interesting designs for the L & R surrounds (which will be placed on spikes and installed on carpeted pedestals) and will probably end up using my rebuilt and upgraded twice Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers as a mirrored pair for the L & R rear channels in my future 7.1 system (I will place them on spikes and install them on carpeted pedestals to raise them to the proper height).

Rich
Richard A. Nelridge

http://www.nelridge.com
4K TV LG OLED65B6P 65" TT/Arm Teres Certus 450/Teres Illius Cart/Phono Pre Soundsmith Strain Gauge/Soundsmith 410 Cond. 3 Panamax M5400-PM Modded: Amps 1st Watt M2, 3 Aragon Palladium 1K, Marantz MM8077 Pre/Pro Marantz av8802A Pre ARC LS10 BDP/CD OPPO UDP-205/Emotiva ERC-3 DAC Emotiva Stealth DC-1 R2R Ampex 440C/B FM Sansui TU-9900 Speakers OMA NYer/Nola/Dahlquist Sub 2 Epik Conquest Racks Adona Wire TP, WW, EA, AQ Treats GIK

Last edited by naturephoto1; 03-06-2009 at 06:42 AM.
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:54 PM   #52
crazyBLUE crazyBLUE is offline
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prerich ! Know that I have my front 3 all the same . I can not tell in you're gallery if you're front 3 are in A straight line or do you have the center offset back or forward from that line ! What would be best !
Brent

Changing to 4K ~ Got the 60" TV. Next the player, movies. Then the sound system ~ Again LOL........
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:58 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyBLUE View Post
prerich ! Know that I have my front 3 all the same . I can not tell in you're gallery if you're front 3 are in A straight line or do you have the center offset back or forward from that line ! What would be best !
I have my center off-set back and my L/R toe'd in just a little not much. Experiment and see which is best in you listening area - straight across may work well for you.
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:59 PM   #54
tlmaclennan tlmaclennan is offline
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From what I can tell they are in a straight line much like you would have with a horizontal center speaker. Have you tried your new setup yet crazyBLUE? I'm waiting to see if you like the change enough to keep it!

EDIT: prerich beat me too it.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:07 PM   #55
prerich prerich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlmaclennan View Post
From what I can tell they are in a straight line much like you would have with a horizontal center speaker. Have you tried your new setup yet crazyBLUE? I'm waiting to see if you like the change enough to keep it!

EDIT: prerich beat me too it.
It's alright . You can't tell very well in the Klipsch photos but they are in a small arch with the center channel a few inches back of the mains. When I run YPAO on my Yamaha - it even measures it (distance)- very acurrately I might add
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:09 PM   #56
crazyBLUE crazyBLUE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prerich View Post
I have my center off-set back and my L/R toe'd in just a little not much. Experiment and see which is best in you listening area - straight across may work well for you.
Thanks prerich ! At the moment my center is back about 8" . I will move it around this afternoon , THANKS ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlmaclennan View Post
From what I can tell they are in a straight line much like you would have with a horizontal center speaker. Have you tried your new setup yet crazyBLUE? I'm waiting to see if you like the change enough to keep it!

EDIT: prerich beat me too it.
I have watched A couple of Blu's w/all 3 front's the same & there is A difference not having the center horizontal !!! I really can't wait to get A 3rd BOSTON Tower to have my Bostons back up front !!
Brent

Changing to 4K ~ Got the 60" TV. Next the player, movies. Then the sound system ~ Again LOL........

Last edited by crazyBLUE; 03-07-2009 at 04:00 AM.
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Old 03-06-2009, 07:07 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prerich View Post
Another different animal - remember one driver in the SDA is actual phase cancellation. When not connected with the cable - I'm told that the driver is nil, and the SDA CRS is a three-way design with a 10 inch woofer in the rear, a phase cancellation mid-range (and tweeter depending on the model) and a normal mid-range and tweeter. A vertical Monitor 7 or Monitor 10 would make a good standing center channel - but you would be ok with a CRS on a stand. I had this in mind at one time but CRS' are a rare find. A third SDA II (if you have the room) would be nice but I would more than likely go with a Monitor 7 or 10 (if you want a floor standing speaker).
I guess another SDA in the middle would be the route to go then. I do not want any issues with voices going from the middle speaker to the other two. Then I would need to find another place to put my A2-300 (it is currently in the middle of the SDA's on the front wall). If I can find another SDA II with the matching Silver Coil Dome tweeters (the SL1000's to be exact), I would buy it if the price was right.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:23 PM   #58
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Big Daddy, if one were to use three bookshelf speakers for their center channel, what would be the best way for them to be oriented? Square, toe-in, toe-out?
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:31 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpkelley View Post
Big Daddy, if one were to use three bookshelf speakers for their center channel, what would be the best way for them to be oriented? Square, toe-in, toe-out?
That is a very difficult question to answer. It depends a lot on your speakers, size of the room, room acoustics, and the location of your listneing area.

As a general rule, using more than one speaker for center channel will give you difficulty and phase cancellation problem. The right and left front speakers receive stereo signals that are not the same. However, multiple center speakers receive the same signal and the drivers can cancel each other.

If I were to guess, the best way to arrange 3 center speakers is to make sure that they are not on the same horizontal path and perhaps they are at a very slight angle to each other. You may try puting one up in the middle (slightly toed downward) and the other two in the bottom of the screen. You really need to experiment to find the best option.

If there is a choice between improving horizontal off-axis performance as opposed to vertical off-axis performance, the answser is to make sure horizontal performance is improved more. Most of us do not watch a movie satnding up.
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Old 03-07-2009, 02:40 AM   #60
Blown 4.3 Blown 4.3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
Two center speakers receive the same signal and will have the phase cancellation problem. You really have to do a lot of experimantion to position them properly or mess with their wiring to change their phase.

The difference between two center speakers and the front left and right speakers is that the main speakers receive different signals (stereo).
care to give a brief explination of the phase cancelation thing ?
(though i think i know what you are talking about)
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