Do Isolation Tweaks really work?

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by rded
Which brings me to my question: If members here are all about isolating their speakers and subs, why is it that only a handful of people isolate their gear/source equipment???

I didn't see your original post, only the above comment in someone else's post, so I hope I'm not taking your quote out of context. But.. the reason to isolate speakers and subs and not gear (aside from turntables) is that speakers put out acoustic energy and other components do not. When you isolate a speaker, you're not "protecting" the speaker, you're preventing the floor it sits on from vibrating, which has negative impact on the sound and annoys the person living below you (assuming there is one.)

Unless the speaker is heavily vibrating the floor, which in turn vibrates your equipment rack, which in turn vibrates your equipment, which causes a bad connection or breaks a solder joint or something, I see absolutely no reason to isolate amps and other source equipment, except for a turntable, which is most definitely affected by vibration and microphonics. The only other case I can think of where isolating an amp would be a good idea is if for some reason the amp is oscillating or the transformers are heavily vibrating and you can feel those vibrations in the floor or walls. But in that case, the amp would be defective.

I'm an ex-recording engineer. I simply fail to see what isolating an amplifier or receiver or CD player is supposed to do. Is one protecting an amp from other equipment or other equipment from the amp or what???

Now having said that, some of the high-end racks that are being sold to provide isolation are quite well crafted and are aesthetically beautiful and I wouldn't mind owning one. But if I did, I wouldn't be buying it for isolation purposes (unless I put my turntable on it), I would be buying it because I think it would look quite cool in my living room. (And for the record, that's how I feel about some of those high-end turntables as well. Technically, it's like using a Rolls Royce engine to turn a house fan, but aesthetically, they're quite beautiful and impressive. But in terms of sound, in spite of the claims, my personal belief is that they'll do the same thing a $500 turntable will do.)

So unless someone has an explanation that relies upon proven principles of physics, I place this recent emphasis on physically isolating equipment along with the snake-oil claims for absurdly expensive cables, for which new companies seem to be selling ever more expensive cables all the time. I've seen short cables selling for more than receivers. Does this really make any sense? Doesn't anyone study physics or electricity anymore? Again, if someone is buying these cables because they're aesthetically beautiful (and many of them are), I have no problem - it's like buying an expensive watch or lighter. Just don't tell me there's any real science behind it.

[jomari]

i tip my hat off to you zoet. to a certain degree this is definitive of what ive thought about high end gear, and how some points curl into my diminishing returns area. its difficult to justify such purchases, unless you have a great expensive turntable.

but thats just me.

again, great post kind sir.

[mdabb]

As for isolating gear......... depends on a few things I would say. Let's say you use cones or spikes to do so. It will still not be sufficient since all materials resonate at various frequencies. So the benefits of spikes/cones alone will be null & void.

Let's say we want to focus on a source player like a CDP. You will have to take apart the player and dampen the transport & housing. Then you will have to come up with something to isolate the circuit boards. So there could be some work involved here. I know my CDP is dampened throughout, and the circuit boards are mounted on rubber bushings as well.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Unless the speaker is heavily vibrating the floor, which in turn vibrates your equipment rack, which in turn vibrates your equipment, which causes a bad connection or breaks a solder joint or something, I see absolutely no reason to isolate amps and other source equipment, except for a turntable, which is most definitely affected by vibration and microphonics.

I used to think that too. Until one day I tried a relatively cheap tweak: placing a Mission Isoplat underneath my CD player (a Mission Isoplat is essentially an MDF board with some Sorbothane feet). I couldn't believe the difference (read: improvement) it made, but the improvement was very noticable and repeatable.

I still have that Isoplat today, underneath my Audio Research SP-9 tube preamp (you can see it in my system pics)!

[rded]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I'm an ex-recording engineer. I simply fail to see what isolating an amplifier or receiver or CD player is supposed to do. Is one protecting an amp from other equipment or other equipment from the amp or what???

Now having said that, some of the high-end racks that are being sold to provide isolation are quite well crafted and are aesthetically beautiful and I wouldn't mind owning one. But if I did, I wouldn't be buying it for isolation purposes (unless I put my turntable on it), I would be buying it because I think it would look quite cool in my living room. (And for the record, that's how I feel about some of those high-end turntables as well. Technically, it's like using a Rolls Royce engine to turn a house fan, but aesthetically, they're quite beautiful and impressive. But in terms of sound, in spite of the claims, my personal belief is that they'll do the same thing a $500 turntable will do.)

So unless someone has an explanation that relies upon proven principles of physics, I place this recent emphasis on physically isolating equipment along with the snake-oil claims for absurdly expensive cables, for which new companies seem to be selling ever more expensive cables all the time. I've seen short cables selling for more than receivers. Does this really make any sense? Doesn't anyone study physics or electricity anymore? Again, if someone is buying these cables because they're aesthetically beautiful (and many of them are), I have no problem - it's like buying an expensive watch or lighter. Just don't tell me there's any real science behind it.

Let me ask you this: Have you tried isolation tweaks on your CDP? You seem to have made up your mind already regarding isolation tweaks to components...

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by rded

Let me ask you this: Have you tried isolation tweaks on your CDP? You seem to have made up your mind already regarding isolation tweaks to components...

If I where to Isolate My Erc-1 Rhett , Would I be putting spikes on with the spikes sitting on A pad of some sort !!

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I didn't see your original post, only the above comment in someone else's post, so I hope I'm not taking your quote out of context. But.. the reason to isolate speakers and subs and not gear (aside from turntables) is that speakers put out acoustic energy and other components do not. When you isolate a speaker, you're not "protecting" the speaker, you're preventing the floor it sits on from vibrating, which has negative impact on the sound and annoys the person living below you (assuming there is one.)

Unless the speaker is heavily vibrating the floor, which in turn vibrates your equipment rack, which in turn vibrates your equipment, which causes a bad connection or breaks a solder joint or something, I see absolutely no reason to isolate amps and other source equipment, except for a turntable, which is most definitely affected by vibration and microphonics. The only other case I can think of where isolating an amp would be a good idea is if for some reason the amp is oscillating or the transformers are heavily vibrating and you can feel those vibrations in the floor or walls. But in that case, the amp would be defective.

I'm an ex-recording engineer. I simply fail to see what isolating an amplifier or receiver or CD player is supposed to do. Is one protecting an amp from other equipment or other equipment from the amp or what???

Now having said that, some of the high-end racks that are being sold to provide isolation are quite well crafted and are aesthetically beautiful and I wouldn't mind owning one. But if I did, I wouldn't be buying it for isolation purposes (unless I put my turntable on it), I would be buying it because I think it would look quite cool in my living room. (And for the record, that's how I feel about some of those high-end turntables as well. Technically, it's like using a Rolls Royce engine to turn a house fan, but aesthetically, they're quite beautiful and impressive. But in terms of sound, in spite of the claims, my personal belief is that they'll do the same thing a $500 turntable will do.)

So unless someone has an explanation that relies upon proven principles of physics, I place this recent emphasis on physically isolating equipment along with the snake-oil claims for absurdly expensive cables, for which new companies seem to be selling ever more expensive cables all the time. I've seen short cables selling for more than receivers. Does this really make any sense? Doesn't anyone study physics or electricity anymore? Again, if someone is buying these cables because they're aesthetically beautiful (and many of them are), I have no problem - it's like buying an expensive watch or lighter. Just don't tell me there's any real science behind it.

From my experience Isolation and isolating feet can and often do have a beneficial affect for amps, Preamps, Pre/Pros, CD players, DVD players, Blu-ray players, Turntables........ The isolation and isolating feet help to dampen and eliminate vibration on a macro and a micro scale of the equipment including the circuitry parts.

Herbies Audio Lab is a good source for many tweaks and isolation materials:

http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/

Rich

[Hammie]

Originally Posted by rded

Fors, the most logical way of isolating all the components is to get a rack of silence(like btf1980's) but is not the cheapest solution. Using pucks, cones and or nodes is a more affordable approach. Musicdirect.com has a myriad of these.

Maple Shade Records (mapleshaderecords.com) is another place that has both music and tweaks.

[js666]

Here's a few good ones too..
http://www.starsoundtechnologies.com/
http://www.symposiumusa.com/

Have tried various tweaks under my CD player and is better for me than the symposium rollerblocks 2. I will always have these.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by rded

Joms,

The hipocracy of the whole thing is that most if not all members find isolating subs and speakers to be effective and beneficial yet they start questioning the validity and the "science" of isolating the components. We do have a double standard in this hobby!

There is no hipocricy. The explanation is very simple.

Speakers and subwoofers generate sound waves. These waves interact with the room boundaries and create problems. This is more of a problem in the case of subwoofers. The low frequencies that are generated by subwoofers have very long wavelengths (several times the size of a typical HT room). They interact with the room boundaries and generate nasty standing waves or room modes. As a result, you get dead and hot spots in the room. An easy solution to deal with these nasty standing waves is move the subwoofers around in the room to deal with horizontal axial modes and put them on a riser/isolator to deal with vertical axial mode.

Placement in the room, risers and isolators are not some crazy tweaks invented by nutty people. There is very good science behind it and an inexperienced person with basic knowledge of high school physics can understand it. In most cases, you can build one for less than $20-$30 and the effect is substantial. In the case of moving the speakers/subwoofer around, the cost is nonfinancial. You have to deal with your back and the WAF.

To the best of my knowledge, source omponents such as receivers, amplifiers, BD/DVD players do not have these nasty sound wave problems and you will have a much harder time justifying isolators, particularly because some of these isolators are outrageously expensive and useless. In the case of turntables, because they are so sensitive to vibrations, justifying isolators becomes a bit easier.

[rded]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

To the best of my knowledge, source omponents such as receivers, amplifiers, BD/DVD players do not have these nasty sound wave problems and you will have a much harder time justifying isolators, particularly because some of these isolators are outrageously expensive and useless. In the case of turntables, because they are so sensitive to vibrations, justifying isolators becomes a bit easier.

I've never said that isolating speakers and subs was a sham! It just seem odd to me, why it seems ludicrous to isolate source components like CDPs and such. Believe me, I get the reason why TTs need to be isolated but same is true with some CDPs, especially if the equipment rack it's on is not dense or is vibration prone. But I'm not too keen into isolating receivers and amps but I guess the reason why I haven't isolated my receiver is because of space constraints. Adding feet or cones underneath it narrows the space between the receiver and top of the shelf.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

There is no hipocracy.....

i guess what Rded was trying to mention regarding hypocricy (sorry boys, had to spell it right... ) was that most people would end up creating a riser, and yet not continue their study so to speak into getting acoustic treatments into the room. correct me if im wrong rded.

i do also believe that we are convoluted right now with some topics, like shooting different targets...

all in all, agreed, there are those here who have higher end equipment, and by all means, continue to use your isolators, and there are those like me, talking about isolating speakers and acoustic treatments et al...

too many topics, all in the same boat.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by jomari

i guess what Rded was trying to mention regarding hypocricy (sorry boys, had to spell it right... )

Don't blame me. I just used Copy and Paste. Let's punish Rded for spreading FUD on the Internet.

[rded]

Originally Posted by jomari

i guess what Rded was trying to mention regarding hypocricy (sorry boys, had to spell it right... ) was that most people would end up creating a riser, and yet not continue their study so to speak into getting acoustic treatments into the room. correct me if im wrong rded.

i do also believe that we are convoluted right now with some topics, like shooting different targets...

all in all, agreed, there are those here who have higher end equipment, and by all means, continue to use your isolators, and there are those like me, talking about isolating speakers and acoustic treatments et al...

too many topics, all in the same boat.

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Don't blame me. I just used Copy and Paste. Let's punish Rded for spreading FUD on the Internet.

Thanks for the spell check Joms. BD, I was never really good with spelling and add to that my lousy typing skills. That's why I'm in the medical field so I won't have to deal with it! ;p

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by rded

Thanks for the spell check Joms. BD, I was never really good with spelling and add to that my lousy typing skills. That's why I'm in the medical field so I won't have to deal with it! ;p

I may not be in the medical feild Rhett , But I fall right into the spelling & typing Category with you !!

[mdabb]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I didn't see your original post, only the above comment in someone else's post, so I hope I'm not taking your quote out of context. But.. the reason to isolate speakers and subs and not gear (aside from turntables) is that speakers put out acoustic energy and other components do not. When you isolate a speaker, you're not "protecting" the speaker, you're preventing the floor it sits on from vibrating, which has negative impact on the sound and annoys the person living below you (assuming there is one.)

Unless the speaker is heavily vibrating the floor, which in turn vibrates your equipment rack, which in turn vibrates your equipment, which causes a bad connection or breaks a solder joint or something, I see absolutely no reason to isolate amps and other source equipment, except for a turntable, which is most definitely affected by vibration and microphonics. The only other case I can think of where isolating an amp would be a good idea is if for some reason the amp is oscillating or the transformers are heavily vibrating and you can feel those vibrations in the floor or walls. But in that case, the amp would be defective.

I'm an ex-recording engineer. I simply fail to see what isolating an amplifier or receiver or CD player is supposed to do. Is one protecting an amp from other equipment or other equipment from the amp or what???

Now having said that, some of the high-end racks that are being sold to provide isolation are quite well crafted and are aesthetically beautiful and I wouldn't mind owning one. But if I did, I wouldn't be buying it for isolation purposes (unless I put my turntable on it), I would be buying it because I think it would look quite cool in my living room. (And for the record, that's how I feel about some of those high-end turntables as well. Technically, it's like using a Rolls Royce engine to turn a house fan, but aesthetically, they're quite beautiful and impressive. But in terms of sound, in spite of the claims, my personal belief is that they'll do the same thing a $500 turntable will do.)

So unless someone has an explanation that relies upon proven principles of physics, I place this recent emphasis on physically isolating equipment along with the snake-oil claims for absurdly expensive cables, for which new companies seem to be selling ever more expensive cables all the time. I've seen short cables selling for more than receivers. Does this really make any sense? Doesn't anyone study physics or electricity anymore? Again, if someone is buying these cables because they're aesthetically beautiful (and many of them are), I have no problem - it's like buying an expensive watch or lighter. Just don't tell me there's any real science behind it.

There is good reason to isolate a source player like a CDP, and it's simply not just about isolation either. The transports used in many CDP's from the high-end to the low-end are OEM products and understandably so. These transports are susceptible to vibration, which can have a negative effect on quality playback. Anything that can be done to stop vibration is certainly a good thing. Vibration effects the performance and the ability to read a disc correctly. Sometimes these errors go un-noticed, but they are still there and that error has an effect on what you hear. It's about the over-all performance and that translates to better sound quality !!! It's about taking what you got and making it better !!! Why not do all that can be done to squeeze every bit of performance out of any source player ............

[Hammie]

I think rded said a major reason why more people don't explore isolation of their components. SPACE. Would I go down that path? Probably. But my cabinet doesn't allow the additional 1-2" height most isolation pads/cones/etc. start at.

As far as room treatments, I think that is where the WAF comes into place. Unless I could do an aesthetically pleasing room treatment, the wife would never have it in our home. I think bigred has the best looking ones, but that may still be pushing it.

I do not have an ideal room for an HT, but I make due with what I do have. I have a hallway and open staircase on one side and an office door and fireplace on the other side that cannot be obstructed. Its a narrow room, so speakers cannot be placed ideally behind the listening area. Ultimately, budget comes into play. We would prefer to spend our money on the "core" components. I think as our setup become more and more complete, some of us will explore additional areas to get our upgraditis "fix" so cabling, diffusers, isolation will start to be looked at.

It's rough and I think this is why many people do not bother researching and learning about some of the topics being discussed.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by louhamilton

I think rded said a major reason why more people don't explore isolation of their components. SPACE. Would I go down that path? Probably. But my cabinet doesn't allow the additional 1-2" height most isolation pads/cones/etc. start at.

this is one very good reason others can do it. "sure i can afford a nice entertainment center", but i dont foresee others who have the 'disposable income' to buy higher end isolation forms. most of our colleagues here are still in college, and others, with a family or other priorities. diminishing returns come into play here. and so does a matter of reality so to speak. am i against it? hell no, but i do consider how much i love my hobby.

As far as room treatments, I think that is where the WAF comes into place. Unless I could do an aesthetically pleasing room treatment, the wife would never have it in our home. I think bigred has the best looking ones, but that may still be pushing it.

There are acoustic treatments out there that can appease the wife too... ive seen some made with pictures or prints... i do understand where your coming from. its not the prettiest to see all that stuff on the wall et al, unless your wife or partner understands your hobby as well as you do. But you can still work with bass traps, and some acoustic panels at least at the frontstage...

I do not have an ideal room for an HT, but I make due with what I do have. I have a hallway and open staircase on one side and an office door and fireplace on the other side that cannot be obstructed. Its a narrow room, so speakers cannot be placed ideally behind the listening area. Ultimately, budget comes into play. We would prefer to spend our money on the "core" components. I think as our setup become more and more complete, some of us will explore additional areas to get our upgraditis "fix" so cabling, diffusers, isolation will start to be looked at.

This is a situation we all can relate to. unlike Brian or others here, there are only the few who can have a dedicated home theater room in their own apartment/house or mansion. we can only do so much as to use certain living spaces, and work with it. compromise is key if we want to have what we want without begging for it.

It's rough and I think this is why many people do not bother researching and learning about some of the topics being discussed.

Well, i must admit, i hesitate when i first was trying to study this, and i admit, it aint easy. its not the prettiest topic, not at all tangible benefits, nor is it the most talked about component. you dont hear someone say, "hey those acoustic panels look hot man".... you'd normally hear someone prefer to say, "furmax for your power protection? sweet"...

The ugly duckling always turns out to be the best improvement you can make to help your home theater.

*I credit this post to Irritate Guy and/or Crazy Old Fart.

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by jomari

king, is that the new speakers you bought? or havent updated the pics yet?

i will answer them once i have the chance...

Yes, that is the new speaker, and it is shown with my supertweeter resting on top. It's resting on a speaker stand platform that has a smaller footprint than the speaker bottom. The speakers are flat, without any spikes or feet, but the platform has a rubber pad in each corner.

I'll try adding more pictures to the gallery tonight. I'm trying to sort it all out, so I can finally open up a gallery thread for the theater project.

[rded]

Originally Posted by louhamilton

I think rded said a major reason why more people don't explore isolation of their components. SPACE. Would I go down that path? Probably. But my cabinet doesn't allow the additional 1-2" height most isolation pads/cones/etc. start at.

Yeah, But I isolate my CDP though with Black diamond racing cones. They're really in expensive about $40 retail but got mine way cheaper than that. If I had more breathing room for my receiver, I would certainly not hesitate to isolate it. I could remove the AVR 600's feet but it might void the warrany as the heads of the screws are inside the chasis.