Use Center Channel or Phantom Center Channel

[naturephoto1]

I am considering using the Phantom Center Channel option rather than a true Center channel speaker for much of my multichannel listening. I would like your observations, and comments about pluses and minuses, any pitfalls or problems based upon your experience or even theory about using either scenario.

When using my Oswalds Mill Audio OMA New Yorker Prototype speakers in stereo versus the no Center Channel speaker (I think my Onkyo 885 defaults to a Phantom Center channel) for movies the sound is quite close (almost identical). In this way the L,R, and C channels all have the same sound and character.

I have been comparing this option as I have been experimenting using my Nola LCR Reference Center Channel speaker in the horizontal and the vertical orientation to see how it mates with my OMA New Yorker Prototype speakers.

There is a definite difference in the sound of my Nola LCR Reference Center Channel speaker and my OMA New Yorker speakers. I think that I am getting a better mating of the sound of the Nola LCR Reference speaker in the vertical orientation with the OMA New Yorker speakers but this in part may be due to the height (on the speaker stand) being more in keeping with the New Yorkers.

The Nola LCR Reference speaker is a three way, four driver with open baffle mid and tweeter (dipole design). The speaker uses a 1" aluminum/magnesium dipole dome in an open baffle, a 4 1/2" tri-laminate cone operating as open baffle dipole, and Twin 6 1/2" bass drivers in separate sealed chambers. By comparison, the OMA New Yorker speakers are each a 2 way compression horn design with a horn tweeter/midrange and 2 15" woofers that are horn loaded as well.

The Nola LCR Reference speaker is about 10% of the cost of each of the OMA New Yorker speakers. It (at least in the set-up with my monoblock amp) has a drier sound, open, but thinner, less rich, and with less depth than the OMA New Yorker speakers. The New Yorker speakers are much more efficient, agile, probably faster, with a fuller, richer sound, and considerably more bass.

The OMA New Yorkers may be a little bass heavy for some voices, but they seem to offer more depth to things and they also seem to mate pretty darn well with the Nola Viper IIA speakers (which use the same tweeter and midrange as the LCR Reference, but they use Twin cast-frame aluminum 220mm (8.67") bass drivers, in a sealed system).

Thanks for any of your experiences, comments, observations, and suggestions.

Rich

[blue11]

I've had experience with and without a centre channel and I prefer having one. While our viewing area isn't big at all (9x9), having a phantom centre wasn't a big deal. When I did add the centre, I preferred it much better. The dialogue was clearer and more pronounced. It also helps that my speakers are all the same type/brand. Seeing as each type/brand of speakers sound different from each other, I can see how having your mains (which are gorgeous by the way) differ from your centre can make the overall experience off by a bit.
Some people may not notice a difference in sound using different type/brands of speakers but some will. I can only imagine how our system would sound should I have gone with a different type of speaker as the centre channel.
In the end, as you most likely know already, it will have to depend on how you feel about it.

[Big Daddy]

My vote goes for a good center channel speaker, particularly for movies.

These are a few quotes from Dr. Floyd Toole, the pre-eminent researcher in the field of Audio. It may be a good idea to read the rest of the article.
http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...nf-rooms_1.pdf

In the beginning, there was monophonic – single channel – sound. Compared to nothing, it was impressive, but eventually serious people began to wonder what more might be possible. Bell Labs, one of the world’s greatest research institutions, looked into what was required for accurate directional reproduction, and concluded that, for loudspeaker reproduction, multiple channels were needed. While many channels were desirable, they were not very practical, certainly not at that time, so they looked into a practical minimum number. They came up with three front channels, just to reproduce the soundstage – no ambiance, no sense of spaciousness. For a single listener, they thought that two channels would be sufficient.

So, in the 1950’s we got two channels.

The reason was that there were no practical methods, at the time, to get more than two channels into and out of the groove of an LP record. We have put up with this limitation for over 50 years, and it is time to move on to better things. The idea that we only have two ears, and therefore need only two channels, applies only to headphone listening. In normal hearing our two ears and brain give us a remarkable three-dimensional sense of direction and space. To reproduce this, we need many channels.

In the seventies, there was an attempt to do better. It failed because of industry disagreements over which of several competing systems should become the standard. Frankly, I am glad it failed, because it was the wrong arrangement of channels. With no center channel, the annoying stereo sweet spot remained. Most of the systems had a lot of crosstalk, or leakage among the channels, so that even the frontback impressions depended on the listener being half way between the front and back speakers. With no side channels, the sense of amb ience and spaciousness was less than it could be.
A lot of paraphernalia for another antisocial system.

Old habits die hard, and entrenched stereo music engineers find it difficult to work with a center channel. So several of them simply don’t use it, or use it very sparingly. The sweet spot is back. They invent “reasons” like: the customer can turn off all of the other channels and then can hear “the talent” naked, without the backing. Another is that customers might buy small cheap center channel speakers, thus degrading “the talent”. Since 80% or more of what we hear in a movie is from the center channel, it seems to me that film people are the ones who should be concerned. In reality there is little to be concerned about. This is a regrettable practice that, I hope, will cease.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Hi Rich,

What prompted this thought? I'm almost surprised to see you entertain it.

John

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by blue11

I've had experience with and without a centre channel and I prefer having one. While our viewing area isn't big at all (9x9), having a phantom centre wasn't a big deal. When I did add the centre, I preferred it much better. The dialogue was clearer and more pronounced. It also helps that my speakers are all the same type/brand. Seeing as each type/brand of speakers sound different from each other, I can see how having your mains (which are gorgeous by the way) differ from your centre can make the overall experience off by a bit.
Some people may not notice a difference in sound using different type/brands of speakers but some will. I can only imagine how our system would sound should I have gone with a different type of speaker as the centre channel.
In the end, as you most likely know already, it will have to depend on how you feel about it.

Thanks very much for the input.

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

My vote goes for a good center channel speaker, particularly for movies.

These are a few quotes from Dr. Floyd Toole, the pre-eminent researcher in the field of Audio. It may be a good idea to read the rest of the article.
http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...nf-rooms_1.pdf

Hi Frank,

Thanks very much. I will have to do more listening. I am getting a richer deeper sound and what appears to more depth and a larger soundstage with the naked OMA New Yorkers and the Phantom Center Channel option than when using the Nola LCR Reference speaker. Also, unless I am mistaken, I am also hearing more detail from the OMA New Yorkers for what should be coming from the Nola LCR Reference Center Channel speaker. This could be an unusual case because of the quality of the New Yorkers not that the Nola is a slouch.

Originally Posted by John72953

Hi Rich,

What prompted this thought? I'm almost surprised to see you entertain it.

John

Hi John,

This additional experimentation with the New Yorker speakers as a Phantom Center Channel speaker and making some listening reorienting the Nola Reference LCR speaker came as a result of the visit by Jonathan Weiss of OMA. When he listened to the system he thought that it sounded dramatically better in stereo for movie playback than it did with the surround system. As I explained to Jonathan if I only used stereo I would lose much of the overall affect the system. As I pointed out to Jonathan he shouldn't expect a $2,200 Center Channel speaker to sound nearly as good as the two $20,000 each New Yorker speakers.

So, I started to experiment with reorienting the Nola Center Channel speaker to the vertical position and comparing it with the overall sound with the OMA New Yorkers in stereo. Then I also started to experiment by turning off the Center Channel speaker entirely and let the Onkyo 885 Pre/Pro take control of the system and listened to the system with the OMA New Yorkers taking on the role of both the front L & R speakers as well as a Phantom Center Channel. As I listened I found that with the New Yorkers doing a double role it sounded almost identical to the speakers in stereo. But, there was a decided thinner sound and a loss of some of the ambiance, depth, openness, richness, etc. when the Nola LCR Reference was used as the Center Channel speaker.

Rich

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

But, there was a decided thinner sound and a loss of some of the ambiance, depth, openness, richness, etc. when the Nola LCR Reference was used as the Center Channel speaker.

Rich

You may have your answer right there.

Tell me, does Jonathan produce a Centre Channel speaker to match the NY'ers? Maybe that's a consideration?

John

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by John72953

You may have your answer right there.

Tell me, does Jonathan produce a Centre Channel speaker to match the NY'ers? Maybe that's a consideration?

John

Hi John,

No he does not. In fact I am the only person that he knows of using any of his horn speakers in a home theater set-up. Everyone else is using his speakers exclusively for high end stereo systems. I could have Jonathan make up a Mini Horn to use as the Center Channel speaker, but that would be a $6,000 speaker and I would probably be back to the issue of having a much too powerful amp for the center channel.



I will have to think this through more carefully, but I really do not want to get one of the Minis as a Center Channel speaker.