Speaker Toe-In

[Bigblue622]

My setup has us sitting about 8' away from the TV. I have a pair of Polk Monitor 60's and I have them at toed in fro the sweet spot of the couch. However since we are so close and don't have a lot of room to spread the speakers farther apart the outside seating positions are almost outside of the speakers. Now it's usually just my girlfriend and I watching movies and we are both within the boundaries but if someone else is here and we all watch one, someone will be outside.

So my question is, should I just minimize the toe-in to include all seating positions or will it negatively affect the sound quality for my position? I've looked for answers on toe-in and how much should be used but it seems like everything I read is different.

Thanks

[Johnny Vinyl]

What I would suggest is that you experiment with the positioning of your speakers to see how you yourself think it sounds.

I personally think that far too many people over-emphasize toe-in and lose the properties inherent from their speakers. They may gain some pinpoint accuracy, but they also lose imaging to a substantial degree. As such, you need to decide what is more important to you, and experimentation is the only way to discover that.

Start with a straight-firing setup and listen to some familiar content, whether that be a movie or music. Then toe-in your speakers and repeat, noticing whether or not you prefer one setup over the other. If you prefer the latter, toe them in some more and repeat. You'll find the position that best suits your ears when using this method.

[Beta Man]

Are your speakers designed to be toed-in to begin with? I'd determine that first..... but I'd probably experiment as the other John suggested....

[stevo]

Some experementing is the answer, but sitting that close i bet a slight toe in would be the answer!

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by stevo

Some experementing is the answer, but sitting that close i bet a slight toe in would be the answer!

Distance has nothing to do with it. Look at the recommendations provided by the speaker manufacturer and start from there (similar to what Beta said). Then use the method I described.

[Bigblue622]

Thanks guys, I figured experimentation would be the answer

As for speaker recommendation of toe-in, I'm not sure. I can't find a definitive answer for the Polks.

[Beta Man]

After plenty of time in a new room.... despite not having a rug etc. yet.... It is clear to me that I need more space around my fronts.... so make sure you don't have them tucked against a wall or in a corner..... that will make a big difference too.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Bigblue622

My setup has us sitting about 8' away from the TV. I have a pair of Polk Monitor 60's and I have them at toed in fro the sweet spot of the couch. However since we are so close and don't have a lot of room to spread the speakers farther apart the outside seating positions are almost outside of the speakers. Now it's usually just my girlfriend and I watching movies and we are both within the boundaries but if someone else is here and we all watch one, someone will be outside.

So my question is, should I just minimize the toe-in to include all seating positions or will it negatively affect the sound quality for my position? I've looked for answers on toe-in and how much should be used but it seems like everything I read is different.

Thanks

I copied this from a section in https://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/6...-speakers.html.

FRONT SPEAKERS SETUP

For front speakers, put the speakers at least 2-3 feet (approx. 1 meter) away from the front and side walls.

• The distance between the two speakers should be between 6 to 10 feet (2 to 3 meters).
• The distance between your main listening chair and the distance between the two speakers should be approximately the same. They should form approximately an equilateral triangle.

• The tweeters should be about the same level as your ears when you are seated. For smaller speakers, use a stand. Slight tilting backward or forward of the speakers until the tweeters point toward your head may also work.
• You can slightly angle (toe-in) the speakers toward the listening chair. You can use a string or laser pointer to make sure both speakers are angled exactly the same. Angling the speakers toward the center of the listening position will make the sound brighter, clearer, with a sharper focus, and a more solid central image. Pointing the speakers straight forward, parallel with each other, will result in a warmer less sharply focused sound. Angling the speakers too much may have two disadvantages:
  1. It may ruin the sound stage.
  2. It will not be very effective for others who may be sitting elsewhere in the room. Don't be selfish.

Play a CD with good soundstaging and a singer in the middle.

• If the soundstage is good and wide but the center stage is blurred, move the speakers closer together.
• If the center stage is focused and sounds great, but the soundstage isn't very wide, angle the speakers away from the listening position a little at a time until the soundstage becomes wider without losing the center stage.
• Many speakers may sound better if they are pointed at your shoulders rather than directly at your head.
• Always use a string or laser pointer to make sure both speakers are angled the same way.
• Don't be afraid to experiment. Rooms are not the same and interaction with room boundaries, furniture, carpets, etc. play an important role in the sound that you hear.
• Many experts believe that in a small home theater room, you hear the room and not the speakers.

[FreddieFerric]

I find that I constantly adjust speaker location and particularly toe-in. You might consider either removing the spikes (if used) or place the speakers on a block with the spikes in place. Then find and mark the setup for the sweet spot that both you and your GF will use for most of the time - and- find a mark a setup that works best for those occassions when others will be present. It's simple to merely slide the speaker from location 1 to location 2 and back again.

You see, engineering at its best.

[stevo]

Originally Posted by BluRayFred

I find that I constantly adjust speaker location and particularly toe-in. You might consider either removing the spikes (if used) or place the speakers on a block with the spikes in place. Then find and mark the setup for the sweet spot that both you and your GF will use for most of the time - and- find a mark a setup that works best for those occassions when others will be present. It's simple to merely slide the speaker from location 1 to location 2 and back again.

You see, engineering at its best.

I have done the same thing I made felt covered coins to put under the carpet spikes so i can slide the speakers in and out and for tweaking the toe in

[FreddieFerric]

Originally Posted by stevo

I have done the same thing I made felt covered coins to put under the carpet spikes so i can slide the speakers in and out and for tweaking the toe in

Yep, and it works!

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by Bigblue622

My setup has us sitting about 8' away from the TV. I have a pair of Polk Monitor 60's and I have them at toed in fro the sweet spot of the couch. However since we are so close and don't have a lot of room to spread the speakers farther apart the outside seating positions are almost outside of the speakers. Now it's usually just my girlfriend and I watching movies and we are both within the boundaries but if someone else is here and we all watch one, someone will be outside.

So my question is, should I just minimize the toe-in to include all seating positions or will it negatively affect the sound quality for my position? I've looked for answers on toe-in and how much should be used but it seems like everything I read is different.

Thanks

If you sit at the apex of an equilateral triangle wrt your L and R fronts, then little or no toe-in is required because the angle between you and your fronts is around 60 deg. You should be getting good imaging along with a wide sound stage too. A little toe-in may help imaging but you don't want to collapse your soundstage with too much. If the angle is less, say 45 deg or so, surely no toe-in is needed. Your sound stage will likely collapse if you do so. However, if the angle is > 60 deg, which may be your case, then you will probably want to toe them in some to get rid of the 'hole' in the middle effect and still have good imaging. Try doing it a little bit at a time though until it sounds natural. So you need to do a little geometry first to get an idea of how much toe-in you can use or get away with.

[acritzer]

Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz

If you sit at the apex of an equilateral triangle wrt your L and R fronts, then little or no toe-in is required because the angle between you and your fronts is around 60 deg. You should be getting good imaging along with a wide sound stage too. A little toe-in may help imaging but you don't want to collapse your soundstage with too much. If the angle is less, say 45 deg or so, surely no toe-in is needed. Your sound stage will likely collapse if you do so. However, if the angle is > 60 deg, which may be your case, then you will probably want to toe them in some to get rid of the 'hole' in the middle effect and still have good imaging. Try doing it a little bit at a time though until it sounds natural. So you need to do a little geometry first to get an idea of how much toe-in you can use or get away with.

Hmm..I've never seen these angles used when discussing toe-in. Did you come up with these on your own? Or are they from another source? I have mine pointed in right now, almost towards the center seat. Perhaps I'll take a look at the angles I have and experiment a bit.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by acritzer

Hmm..I've never seen these angles used when discussing toe-in. Did you come up with these on your own? Or are they from another source? I have mine pointed in right now, almost towards the center seat. Perhaps I'll take a look at the angles I have and experiment a bit.

Yes, those are my own guidelines based on experimenting with my Energy speakers. I found that my speakers sounded most open and spacious when they are 60 deg apart. The manual's 1.5 rule would have them placed roughly 38 deg apart which sounded too bunched up to me. I started with the viewing distance from the screen first and worked from there. That distance is fixed so I can get the optimal resolution from 1080p. The sweetspot is 8 ft from the screen. I started with the speakers 6 ft apart which placed it just over the Energy's 1.5 rule that I didn't like. By the time I got out to 8 ft apart, the speakers made a 53 deg angle wrt the listening position. The sound was quite spacious and I liked it. The imaging was still very good. I stopped at 9 ft apart. That was nearly 60 deg angle. By then I needed a little toe-in to preserve the imaging. However, it didn't look as aesthetically pleasing in the room compared to being 8 feet apart.

So I ended up with them being 8 ft, 53 deg angle, and no toe-in which was perfect for distance from the screen, spacious sound, and good imaging.

[kingofgrills]

It all depends on the speaker design, including the types of drivers used, as well as manufacturer's intentions. Of course, user preference is what matters, so listen to your ears.

Just make sure you don't toe in too far, otherwise you will collapse your soundstage and lose all benefits of imaging. My front speakers are almost straight ahead, with very slight toe-in (probably can't tell from my pictures). The achieved soundstage is broad, and the imaging is great. My rears are toe'd in quite a bit more toward the listening area, but given the 360 degree dispersment pattern from the ribbon tweeters, the imaging remains fine.

[naturephoto1]

Toe in is dependent upon many factors including speaker design and size, distance apart, distance from the rear wall, distance from the seating position, size of the room in length and width, etc.

For myself, due to the size of my speakers, their distance apart, the distance from the seating, and the length and the width of the room I have to toe mine in. If I could I would not but, in my situation I have no option. My adjustment can be in as little as about 1/16" of an inch from the rear wall and angling of the speakers which can make a noticeable change in the sound, soundstage, and imaging.

At the very least you should experiment. You probably will not have as sensitive an adjustment as mine, but will be worth your while.

Rich

[acritzer]

Well I found out my angle was about 52 degrees so I decided to move them back out a bit. Now instead of them being pointed toward the center seat they are pointed just to the outside if our 3 person couch. Just a slight toe in now. We'll see how they sound tonight for a movie.

Anyone find that they had to adjust the speaker level after toeing in or out? I'd rather not have to drag out the SPL again. Drives my wife crazy (sigh).

[Halcro 1]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Are your speakers designed to be toed-in to begin with? I'd determine that first..... but I'd probably experiment as the other John suggested....

Ive never heard of speakers that were designed to be toed-in...

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by acritzer

Well I found out my angle was about 52 degrees so I decided to move them back out a bit. Now instead of them being pointed toward the center seat they are pointed just to the outside if our 3 person couch. Just a slight toe in now. We'll see how they sound tonight for a movie.

Anyone find that they had to adjust the speaker level after toeing in or out? I'd rather not have to drag out the SPL again. Drives my wife crazy (sigh).

I would recommend using your SPL meter, you would be surprised how such a minor adjustment can change things a db or 2.....

[richteer]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Toe in is dependent upon many factors including speaker design and size, distance apart, distance from the rear wall, distance from the seating position, size of the room in length and width, etc.

Agreed. As another data point, I use my MartinLogan Spires with a slight toe OUT, because that's how they sound best (and is also in accordance with ML's set up guidelines).