All 1080p is not created equal - a Blu-ray Player Benchmark

[oppopioneer]

The Secrets Blu-ray Player HDMI Benchmark - Part I...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/techn...roduction.html

[wafi]

Good read!

[Turnda643]

Interesting. I'd like to see some of these tests done on 3D players. The Panasonic's specifically.

[bhampton]

I'd like to see the data for the various PS3's.

-Brian

[richieb1971]

Not impressed. You are only going to know what colors are supposed to be if you were filming the content in the first place.

How those 1's and 0's get from the disc to your display is not of any concern.

The encode process is the most important process of all. If that works really really well, even the cheapest dumbass blu ray player will make it look golden.

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by richieb1971

Not impressed. You are only going to know what colors are supposed to be if you were filming the content in the first place.

How those 1's and 0's get from the disc to your display is not of any concern.

The encode process is the most important process of all. If that works really really well, even the cheapest dumbass blu ray player will make it look golden.

100% don't agree with you.

A player is supposed to conform to specifications and this data shows the failure of the Sony 570 in particular to do so.

Equipment that distorts the signal is never going to outperform equipment that does not.

Based on this information I removed the Sony S370 from my system and put my PS3 in it's place. I don't have data to suggest the PS3 does it right but I have evidence the Sony x70 models did not process the signal correctly.

-Brian

[ZoetMB]

I think a lot of people who might be freaking out about this also have uncalibrated displays and are watching their displays in something close to "retail blast" mode, which makes the whole thing kind of moot, no?

It reminds me of the audio days when people wanted a flat frequency response, but then NEVER had their tone controls in the flat position and/or ran their signal through an equalizer. If it sounds better, that's fine, but it also doesn't matter if there was a 2db bump at 750Hz.

I had the OPPO BDP-83, sold it and bought the Sony BDP-570 for use until I get around to buying the BDP-95. Frankly, I don't see any differences, but I didn't have them both in the house at the same time. Where I do find the Sony to be different (and inferior) is in the analog audio when I play CDs and SACDs.

But I also think it's a little unfair to compare the Sony, which had an average street price of around $160 and sold for as little as $130, to the OPPO BDP-83 and -93, which sold for $500 and up. I think audio/video components need to be compared within their class. You wouldn't expect a Ford Fiesta to perform as well as a BMW.

Also, don't calibrators generally also calibrate by input (at least for a few inputs)? In that case, if they calibrated for example, the HDMI1 input, which you're using for the BD player, wouldn't that make up for most, if not all of the faults?

[groove93]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I think a lot of people who might be freaking out about this also have uncalibrated displays and are watching their displays in something close to "retail blast" mode, which makes the whole thing kind of moot, no?

It reminds me of the audio days when people wanted a flat frequency response, but then NEVER had their tone controls in the flat position and/or ran their signal through an equalizer. If it sounds better, that's fine, but it also doesn't matter if there was a 2db bump at 750Hz.

I had the OPPO BDP-83, sold it and bought the Sony BDP-570 for use until I get around to buying the BDP-95. Frankly, I don't see any differences, but I didn't have them both in the house at the same time. Where I do find the Sony to be different (and inferior) is in the analog audio when I play CDs and SACDs.

But I also think it's a little unfair to compare the Sony, which had an average street price of around $160 and sold for as little as $130, to the OPPO BDP-83 and -93, which sold for $500 and up. I think audio/video components need to be compared within their class. You wouldn't expect a Ford Fiesta to perform as well as a BMW.

Also, don't calibrators generally also calibrate by input (at least for a few inputs)? In that case, if they calibrated for example, the HDMI1 input, which you're using for the BD player, wouldn't that make up for most, if not all of the faults?

All good points but remember during the DVD era when Oppo players were put up against higher end Denon players and left them in the dust. So even if they used a Sony BDP S770 or an ES Series player, it probably would have not made that big of a difference.

[oppopioneer]

Get your tv's and bd's HDMI inputs calibrated by a professional ISF calibrator and then that's where you should start to compare bd players.

[bhampton]

In this case it's a matter of the data being clipped and bandwidth being reduced.

Calibrated displays are optimal but a player that doesn't output the correct signal is a problem without a solution,... unless they fixed the problem via Firmware which is unlikely.

-Brian

[Deciazulado]

Well looking at the table it doesn't look as if the data is being clipped, but as if the levels are lower than they should be. It's not accurate, and the channels differ relative to each other, so it can't be fully corrected by just raising the white level/contrast control on the TV to bring white up to 255, but it probably makes it look more as a display with slightly miscalibrated grey scale and primaries/decoding would.

[Ray O. Blu]

"We were quite surprised by these data, as it seemed that everyone, including ourselves, had loved the Sony player."

"With these issues, I can no longer recommend the Sony player, because its output is incorrect and will compromise the performance of the rest of your system."

I can't even begin to express how hypocritical and contradictory the person that wrote this article is. So basically, the numbers in the test data somehow became more important than the hands-on cognitive, sensory experience? Hogwash!

[Icemouth]

Originally Posted by bhampton

100% don't agree with you.

A player is supposed to conform to specifications and this data shows the failure of the Sony 570 in particular to do so.

Equipment that distorts the signal is never going to outperform equipment that does not.

Based on this information I removed the Sony S370 from my system and put my PS3 in it's place. I don't have data to suggest the PS3 does it right but I have evidence the Sony x70 models did not process the signal correctly.

-Brian

So wait you removed something, that you noticed no issue with, when you found out that there is some "issue" which might be unnoticeable with it, for something that you don't know one way or another, and don't notice a difference with?

You're....intriguing. You probably own a Mac right?

[bhampton]

I own macs and PCs and that's not relevant. I'm not interested in a "fight", I am looking for a Blu Ray player that isn't defective.

The issue discovered here wasn't the first problem with my S370. Scream 3 would not play and I had to go back to using the PS3 for that. Also, I used to be able to keep the S370 from connecting to the internet but the latest FW doesn't allow this anymore.

I used my PS3 for Blu Ray playback since Nov 06. My S370 can be set aside as a "spare" in case my PS3 fails.

I don't have information saying the PS3 gets this data right but the PS3 operates more like a computer so I believe it likely processes the signal correctly.

A Blu Ray player delivers a digital signal via HDMI and some blu ray players do not deliver the signal properly. Are you familiar with overscan? Several reviews of DVD players from back in the day revealed how much of the signal near the borders of the image were beling clipped and not delivered from the player to the rest of the system. This wasn't a problem for most people as the displays they were using also clipped off the sides.

Such players were defective but people can't bothered to understand such things.

Same story here.

If this mac posted everthing but the last few characters of this post I would get a different compu...

[Zombienietzsche]

This thread is terrible. On things people are unable to discern no less.

Also INTERNET FIGHT!!!

[bhampton]

NO.

There's really no fight here.

At least... I'm not interested in one.

I'm glad that Secrets continues to educate with it's lab reports.

I assumed that digital outputs of players just processed correctly by now but that's what you get for assuming.

-Brian

[djkest]

So I wonder if the Sony players are doing this, what about other cheaper players? I am not going to buy an Oppo most likely. How about testing the Panasonic players that seem to be so popular?

[Trogdor2010]

The argument is that while to get the most accurate picture is through the display itself, we also have to worry about the settings on the player?

Essentially we need to get both test pattern in displays (should have been the first place) and disc test patterns. Obviously you need to calibrate for each outpuit of each device you use in order to get optimal results. I find it sad that game consoles do not have any proper test patterns (or many computer control settings), and even then you often rely on components in order to get results, some not even real world (I personally avoid that).

It's difficult to get subjectivity out of the way when calibrating, some of us like warmer colors, or some of us like the harshness of cooler colors, what can you do?

I have DVE: HD and I find the test results far more simpler and way less redundant than the test patterns offered on most formats, because it ACTUALLY has a reference if you follow the videos provided, and it is perceivable even. I wish I had Spears and Munsil too, which I heard is even better than DVE: HD.

[bhampton]

Trogdor,

If you can, check out the free test pattern disc on AVScience. It's called AVS709.

I have Digital Video Essentials on Blu Ray, DVD, and even the old Laserdisc version. However,... The AVS disc is the BEST and it's free.

You just download it and burn it onto a Blu Ray or a DVD. (Most of the Blu Ray players can play it back on DVD as Blu Ray content.)

-Brian

[smackrabbit]

Originally Posted by Ray O. Blu

I can't even begin to express how hypocritical and contradictory the person that wrote this article is. So basically, the numbers in the test data somehow became more important than the hands-on cognitive, sensory experience? Hogwash!

And that would be me that you are talking about. I didn't write the original review of the S-570. I do own one, which has spent it's entire life hooked up to a 32" 720p LCD in the bedroom that isn't calibrated, since it lacks the proper controls (otherwise, I'd do it just to do it). So since I never did the review that recommended the player, but I did tell friends that it had been working well for me, I don't feel hypocritical at all in revoking the recommendation for it.

We did a comparison of the Sony to the Oppo on a very nice, reference setup (at Stacey Spears house, half of Spears and Munsil) and we could tell a difference with the Sony. Gradients were not nearly as smooth, the peak white level was far different, and other patterns showed the issue as well. It's also fundamentally impossible to calibrate a display using the Sony since there is no WTW on it, it shifts everything below that level.

If you get an ISF Calibration, and run separate HDMI cables to the display for every video component you have, than you can somewhat get around these issues from devices, but the far more common setup for people is:

- They calibrate from their Blu-ray player with a disc of patterns
- They run everything through a processor to one input

In that setup, players that perform wrong will screw up the image for everything else in the system. Your TV signal will be way overblown if you set the contrast based on the Sony, as your colors would be incorrect if you tried to calibrate those based on the Sony as well.

If you don't care, that's fine. However, we don't think it's OK for manufacturers to put out devices that perform incorrectly on the market and that end users have no way to know this. Because of that, we are doing this testing to find equipment that does perform to spec, and only recommending those players that do.