Ghosting / Crosstalk / Double Images Discussion Thread

[digitalkiller]

This topic came from this thread.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/3d-technol...ml#post4117253

[mredman]

for example Piranha had ghosting in the theater. So does the 3D blu ray. But it is not severe at all it is only some places.
Almost every title i own have minimal ghosting does the 3D movies also have that in the theater

I also seen the reviews and it seems like the reviewers also experience ghosting on almost all titles.

One title in particular really has severe ghosting it is almost unwatchable in 3D because of it. It is My Bloody Valentine. It is so bad. Did this movie also have that much in theater like there is on the 3D blu ray

[TWright]

I haven't seen Piranha, but I've seen almost every other 3D theatrical release and there has been very little crosstalk, the only time I've noticed it was in Kung Fu Panda 2 near the beginning of the movie. If I recall it was a scene with flaming torches at night and the torch light had some crosstalk going on. But it was very minor, and that's the only time I've ever noticed it at the theater.

[Paul H]

Ghosting i.e. crosstalk/double image is a filtering display limitation. In the theater and on Blu-ray 3D, the 3D video source usually is flawless in that both the left and right image data will have no crosstalk contamination. Both left and right images usually contain separate pristine 2D images.

Ghosting in the theater and on many (not all) home displays where polarized glasses or active shutter glasses are used, the "ghosting" will come from the limitations of the filter source that blocks the light of the intended image not to be seen. Usually only extreme areas in the picture where brightly lit sections on very dark or black backgrounds will defeat the intended result.

Systems that use a designated display for independent separated viewing for the left and right eye definitely verify that ghosting is usually not in the source. There are exceptions from filming techniques and equipment that can contaminate the image source or experimental conversion processes.

Paul

[mredman]

Its weird there is more ghosting on 3D blu ray. How come they can't fix it so there would be no ghosting at all.

[BlackBeltNinja]

Yeah, I've noticed at least a little ghosting on a lot of the 3d blus I have. Even games like Uncharted 3 and the demo for Motorstorm Apocalypse. I definitely recommend Stardust HD on the ps3. The 3d in that game is flawless and absolutely adds to the experience. I can't even play that game in 2d anymore.

[Paul H]

Originally Posted by mredman

Its weird there is more ghosting on 3D blu ray. How come they can't fix it so there would be no ghosting at all.

3D blu-ray's are not the problem when ghosting is concerned.

Ghosting is caused by the limitations of the current 3D display's, the current capability of the filter devices and 3D Film/video sources with ghosting present.
Improvements and upgrades to displays and filters are being made all the time.

In the future you will be able to see a pristine 3D movie if authored from a pristine 3D film/video source, at home, using todays 3D blu-rays, and the 3D won't create any ghosting that isn't inherently already on the discs.

[almy]

I'm about to but a 3-D TV (either a 60" Elite or a 65" Panasonic). In various reviews of many brands I've seen such descriptions as "no" or "minimal" ghosting. I'm assuming that ghosting and crosstalk are the same. I've seen the same terms used in reviews of 3-D discs. Sadly, most disc reviewers usually don't indicate what TVs they're using when writing reviews. As an example, there is a new review of the 3-D HUGO at Blu-Ray.com saying that crosstalk is prevalent throughout the disc. (Incidentally, I saw what ghosting was when I saw my first 3-D TV demo on a Samsung back in 2010). So my question is this: Is ghosting/crosstalk a result of the disc or the TV? Would that 3-D disc of HUGO look better on a different display than the reviewer used? I've also read that (supposedly) there is never any ghosting on Plasma displays. Is that true? Thanks

[kwrobbins]

I have a plasma and I do occasionally get ghosting

[mar3o]

I'm wondering the same thing myself. I have the Hugo blu-ray ordered so I will be receiving it by the weekend. I read the review here and took note of the comments on the heavy crosstalk, or ghosting. I'm concerned myself, so I'll definitely be curious to see how it looks.

I own a 51" plasma, and I can definitely see ghosting on some material, so don't believe that plasma is immune, because it most certainly is not.

[Cevolution]

It all depends on the overall quality of the plasma, how the tv's been calibrated, your seating position and the conditions of your room when watching tv or 3d. Some plasma models are going to experience crosstalk much more than others, especially 2010 3d plasma models. The amount of crosstalk is horrible on most 1st gen 2010 3d plasma's. I don't see any crosstalk on my Samsung pn59d8000 plasma, unless I am looking at the screen on an angle, mostly greater than appoximately 45 degrees, and even then it's only mild. I only really noticed that mild crosstalk is present on an angle when I've gotten up to go to my snack bar, bathroom or computer while I've still had the glasses on. My seating isn't positioned on a different angle to my tv screen (expect for the slight angle the end seats to the right and left of my HT lounge are on), so when I sit down to watch 3d content, it's not an issue. The Samsung pnxxd8000/7000 and the Panasonic VT30, have been quoted by many reviewers to offer the best 3d experience out of all 3d models by all manufacturers in 2011. Even if your plasma does display crosstalk from time to time, the amount is still much lower than what you see on lcd/led panels.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by almy

I'm about to but a 3-D TV (either a 60" Elite or a 65" Panasonic). In various reviews of many brands I've seen such descriptions as "no" or "minimal" ghosting. I'm assuming that ghosting and crosstalk are the same. I've seen the same terms used in reviews of 3-D discs. Sadly, most disc reviewers usually don't indicate what TVs they're using when writing reviews. As an example, there is a new review of the 3-D HUGO at Blu-Ray.com saying that crosstalk is prevalent throughout the disc. (Incidentally, I saw what ghosting was when I saw my first 3-D TV demo on a Samsung back in 2010). So my question is this: Is ghosting/crosstalk a result of the disc or the TV? Would that 3-D disc of HUGO look better on a different display than the reviewer used? I've also read that (supposedly) there is never any ghosting on Plasma displays. Is that true? Thanks

You may have to bounce around a bit but these two posts answer at least some of your questions -

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=237

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ng#post5851987

P.S.
In the vast, and I mean VAST majority of cases, ghosting is display dependent. Just about all displays (watch the YouTube clip from the second link above) have crosstalk due to leakage from channel to channel but, in essence, some displays show no ghosting at all as the crosstalk lies below the human visibility threshold.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by almy

I'm about to but a 3-D TV...

If you do the majority of your 3D movie watching alone, this display device may be a worthwhile consideration –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ce#post5853152

or, at least possibly as an accessory 3D viewing device to your eventual ‘living room’ display.

[steelerik]

Here's food for thought.

I have a passive 3D TV and GET ZERO xtalk. Yes I realise there there is a drop in resolution but I would take a drop in resolution over xtalk anyday. Just my preference, but it really is something to consider when looking for a 3D TV.

[Penton-Man]

If during the principal photography, the filmmakers really push the stereo effect….

ghosting usually rears its head at around a total depth budget exceeding 3% on high contrast areas with conventional 3D TV flat panels or front projection because such a large disparity is just too deep to perfectly fuse (3net and BskyB have a +2% and -1% 3D depth budget). Conventional teaching is for stereographers to stay below that ‘barrier’ and high-end feature films these days, for the most part, abide by that *advice*.

Also in regards to principal photography and ghosting, it is next to impossible to stereoscopically shoot a spatially coherent lens flare and scenes with specular highlights can be particularly troublesome, which is why, if they are not shot in 2D and then converted you can get misalignment problems during exhibition.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by steelerik

Here's food for thought.

I have a passive 3D TV and GET ZERO xtalk. Yes I realise there there is a drop in resolution...

It isn't just a drop but I think it is a substantial drop. Nevertheless, potential purchasers may not have to worry about that at all in the future with 4K 3D.

Best of both worlds, so to speak.

[steelerik]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

It isn't just a drop but I think it is a substantial drop. .

BUT my point is, I would rather have a drop in resolution and be happy with the zero xtalk 3D. To me the sacrifice is WELL worth it. If I sit 2 feet from the screen, yes I can see the scan lines, but when am I gonna sit that close?

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by steelerik

BUT my point is, I would rather have a drop in resolution and be happy with the zero xtalk 3D. To me the sacrifice is WELL worth it. If I sit 2 feet from the screen, yes I can see the scan lines, but when am I gonna sit that close?

No active or passive display has zero crosstalk, you can produce a sitution that creates it. Like how I mentioned with my active set in my above post, passive 3dtv technology can also produce crosstalk when looking at the screen at certain angles or if your head is at a different height to the screen. I don't experience any crosstalk on my active plasma, except for when I'm not using the tv correctly while watching 3d, by looking at the screen on what's considered to be an abnormal angle for viewing 3d content. Not everyone has their lounge directly parallel to their tv screen, this would be 1 reason why some people experience crosstalk more than others. But of course they still blame the tech for something that is really common sense, because they feel that 3d should work perfectly at any angle rather than having to accommodate their lounge room for it.

I'd rather have no drop in resolution and no crosstalk, which is what I feel I am getting with my Samsung D8000 plasma.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by steelerik

BUT my point is, I would rather have a drop in resolution and be happy with the zero xtalk 3D. To me the sacrifice is WELL worth it. If I sit 2 feet from the screen, yes I can see the scan lines, but when am I gonna sit that close?

Well, perhaps for those who are not following, you should tell people who don’t own your particular type of display, but may be in the market to purchase one, exactly how much the actual resolution(in terms of k’s) is of the images you are watching in 3D...for the clarification of the discussion.

I do understand your point and I respect it. You have offered a valid subjective opinion and something which future 3D TV purchasers should consider . Others who own 3D sets displaying higher resolution and yet seldomly have experienced annoying ghosting while viewing their library of Blu-ray 3D titles might disagree (see Cevolution , without The Bird ).

It’s the exchange of information like this which makes this forum such a valuable asset to its members.

[AmrlKJaneway]

All my movies are riddled with cross-talk. Not one shot can be viewed without a distracting double image and it annoys the hell out of me.

However, I've found putting on those glasses works wonders to fix this.