As I Begin Considering Atmos/DTS:X Upgrades, a Question About Speakers...

[IntelliVolume]

So as the wife and I are preparing to move -- slowly -- into the 4K/UHD realm, I have some questions regarding Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, specifically as they relate to speaker layout standards...

I realize I have to upgrade my AVR to one that supports the "enhanced dimension codecs," but as far as speakers go, can we get away with adding those "modules" that sit atop the main speakers to simulate the overhead effects on these soundtracks? Or is it absolutely necessary to add ceiling-oriented speakers?

I know Onkyo came out with those "modules" that are supposed to simulate the Atmos and DTS:X effect, but are actual additional speakers needed...or do these modules create a convincing enough effect?

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

So as the wife and I are preparing to move -- slowly -- into the 4K/UHD realm, I have some questions regarding Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, specifically as they relate to speaker layout standards...

I realize I have to upgrade my AVR to one that supports the "enhanced dimension codecs," but as far as speakers go, can we get away with adding those "modules" that sit atop the main speakers to simulate the overhead effects on these soundtracks? Or is it absolutely necessary to add ceiling-oriented speakers?

I know Onkyo came out with those "modules" that are supposed to simulate the Atmos and DTS:X effect, but are actual additional speakers needed...or do these modules create a convincing enough effect?

my opinion is no. use the modules as a last resort and remember, it "simulates" the true effect which is ceiling/top based.

I have heard the modules in a demo and they sounded nice, but, they were never going to top (pun intended) ceiling mounted speakers.

we do what we can and forgive me, but, you did mention your wife and most of the time when I see that, I see most guys saying no way she won't let me do it. no disrespect intended, please understand. not that this is necessarily your case. I'm hopeful that your Mrs. will be a partner in this effort with you and go for the ceiling mounted speakers as it will reap the true and most benefits from ATMOS/DTS:X audio. both you and she will thank me later.

best of luck, keep us posted and you should have created a poll to let folks vote ceiling speakers, dolby module speakers (built in or seperates) or wall mounted heights.

[keenly]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

So as the wife and I are preparing to move -- slowly -- into the 4K/UHD realm, I have some questions regarding Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, specifically as they relate to speaker layout standards...

I realize I have to upgrade my AVR to one that supports the "enhanced dimension codecs," but as far as speakers go, can we get away with adding those "modules" that sit atop the main speakers to simulate the overhead effects on these soundtracks? Or is it absolutely necessary to add ceiling-oriented speakers?

I know Onkyo came out with those "modules" that are supposed to simulate the Atmos and DTS:X effect, but are actual additional speakers needed...or do these modules create a convincing enough effect?

Hi there
I have speakers on shelves/brackets just below ceiling pointing downwards to MLP. Works fine.

Most will not be able to put speakers into ceilings, so just compromise and improvise.

Good luck.

[kansashoops]

I rent my house, so ceiling/wall mounted speakers were not an option for me. I am using Atmos speakers that sit atop my fronts and rears, and I am getting a good quality Atmos experience with them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/222241691385...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

If I owned my own home, I would definitely go with mounted speakers, because I'm pretty sure I'm only getting 50-60% of the potential experience out of my height speakers.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

my opinion is no. use the modules as a last resort and remember, it "simulates" the true effect which is ceiling/top based.

I have heard the modules in a demo and they sounded nice, but, they were never going to top (pun intended) ceiling mounted speakers.

we do what we can and forgive me, but, you did mention your wife and most of the time when I see that, I see most guys saying no way she won't let me do it. no disrespect intended, please understand. not that this is necessarily your case. I'm hopeful that your Mrs. will be a partner in this effort with you and go for the ceiling mounted speakers as it will reap the true and most benefits from ATMOS/DTS:X audio. both you and she will thank me later.

best of luck, keep us posted and you should have created a poll to let folks vote ceiling speakers, dolby module speakers (built in or seperates) or wall mounted heights.

Thanks a lot, Solar. Appreciate the input.

I was hoping someone wouldn't say what you said -- if only because I didn't really want to get into adding an array of ceiling speakers. However, here's the thing -- we're already running SpeakerCraft in-ceiling speakers for our surrounds (which were already installed when we bought our house) and have a few extra ones that have not been connected (because whoever put these in prior set them up for a L-C-R array in the ceiling, which we're not taking advantage of). I'm wondering if I can use these extra in-ceiling speakers as Atmos/DTS:X drivers (and just have them positioned somewhere ideal)...

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by keenly

Hi there
I have speakers on shelves/brackets just below ceiling pointing downwards to MLP. Works fine.

Most will not be able to put speakers into ceilings, so just compromise and improvise.

Good luck.

Thanks keenly; are the speakers you're referring to in your system for Atmos/DTS:X extensions, or are your main channels situated that way?

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by kansashoops

I rent my house, so ceiling/wall mounted speakers were not an option for me. I am using Atmos speakers that sit atop my fronts and rears, and I am getting a good quality Atmos experience with them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/222241691385...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

If I owned my own home, I would definitely go with mounted speakers, because I'm pretty sure I'm only getting 50-60% of the potential experience out of my height speakers.

Thanks 'hoops!

I'll put the Pioneers on my consideration list if I decide to go this way.

Seems the consensus is that add-on modules don't provide the full overhead mapping experience as offered by true in-ceiling or ceiling-mounted speakers for Atmos and DTS:X soundtracks, huh? Would I at least experience some of what these tracks offer by using modules atop my main channels? I mean, would the experience be completely useless?

[kansashoops]

Useless? Absolutely not. I don't have a good way of knowing what my system would sound like if I had overhead speakers, but my sense is that I am getting about half to two-thirds of the full effect using speakers that bounce the sound off the ceiling. When I play a movie with an Atmos track, and there is rainfall or a helicopter buzzing overhead, or something like that, I definitely hear sound coming from above me. But it is not as distinct as sound coming from the side or rear surrounds, if that makes any sense. I think the reflected sound just gets dispersed and dissipated, and that the 3D effect would be more pronounced if I were using wall or ceiling mounted speakers directed down toward the listening positions.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by kansashoops

Useless? Absolutely not. I don't have a good way of knowing what my system would sound like if I had overhead speakers, but my sense is that I am getting about half to two-thirds of the full effect using speakers that bounce the sound off the ceiling. When I play a movie with an Atmos track, and there is rainfall or a helicopter buzzing overhead, or something like that, I definitely hear sound coming from above me. But it is not as distinct as sound coming from the side or rear surrounds, if that makes any sense. I think the reflected sound just gets dispersed and dissipated, and that the 3D effect would be more pronounced if I were using wall or ceiling mounted speakers directed down toward the listening positions.

I see; thank you.

A lot for me to take in and consider, being that I'm not even running 7.1 or heights...

[Caesu]

I bought the Andrew Jones pioneer atmos modules. I thought they worked, but really I was just imagining they were. The popcorn ceiling didnt reflect at all and if they did they were not doing a good job of it even after a MCACC calibation and then some. Checking settings over and over, anhd even pushing more decibals into the module to have them play louder.

They. Did. Not. Work.

I can say, to anyone, I cant recommend modules. It's just too hit or miss.

If you cant install direct overead speakers like in wall ceiling, then just buy a couple Kanto BENs and their mounting kit (great sealed speakers btw for imaging). Have them on the front wall as high as you can pointing to the MLP and you will have a much better experience.

I tested that but with another pair on the rear high wall pinting down also.

Rain sounds like it's coming from above as it should, calibration was perfect and the receiver didnt feel confused as say "out of phase" or "fail" in tests I got with the modules reflecting all over the place or not at all.

Just follow the atmos guidelines for the rest of the speakers.

I lowered my side surrounds to match the height or slightly above the fronts instead of 3 feet above ear level and that helped give more separation from the atmos effect and not.

I now have 4 modules I need to get rid of, what a waste of cash for me.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by Caesu

I bought the Andrew Jones pioneer atmos modules. I thought they worked, but really I was just imagining they were. The popcorn ceiling didnt reflect at all and if they did they were not doing a good job of it even after a MCACC calibation and then some. Checking settings over and over, anhd even pushing more decibals into the module to have them play louder.

They. Did. Not. Work.

I can say, to anyone, I cant recommend modules. It's just too hit or miss.

If you cant install direct overead speakers like in wall ceiling, then just buy a couple Kanto BENs and their mounting kit (great sealed speakers btw for imaging). Have them on the front wall as high as you can pointing to the MLP and you will have a much better experience.

I tested that but with another pair on the rear high wall pinting down also.

Rain sounds like it's coming from above as it should, calibration was perfect and the receiver didnt feel confused as say "out of phase" or "fail" in tests I got with the modules reflecting all over the place or not at all.

Just follow the atmos guidelines for the rest of the speakers.

I lowered my side surrounds to match the height or slightly above the fronts instead of 3 feet above ear level and that helped give more separation from the atmos effect and not.

I now have 4 modules I need to get rid of, what a waste of cash for me.

Thanks for your feedback here; sorry to hear the modules didn't work for you.

The whole thing kind of seems like a hassle, to be honest, so I may just stick with 5.1 for now and perhaps graduate to 7.1 in the future before expanding to Atmos/DTS:X. I only have a couple of Blu-ray titles that even feature these soundtracks, which I believe are San Andreas, Jason Bourne, Terminator Genysis and Batman v Superman -- all of which sound fantastic even in 5.1 surround.

[Caesu]

I would have thought the same with the module experience, but after using dedicated speakers instead, it has made a very nice difference all around. Instead of sound coming from the front and all around you from the side surrounds, you now get another dimension of sound from above.

In John Wick you can hear the rain coming down above you and the side surrounds give the pitter patter sounds of the rain hitting the pavement for example. Very cool. Makes you feel like it's raining in the room.

Dedciated speaker for Atmos is the way to go, making Atmos a very good upgrade and worth the extra effort putting up 2-4 speakers up high on the wall or in the ceiling above.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by Caesu

I would have thought the same with the module experience, but after using dedicated speakers instead, it has made a very nice difference all around. Instead of sound coming from the front and all around you from the side surrounds, you now get another dimension of sound from above.

In John Wick you can hear the rain coming down above you and the side surrounds give the pitter patter sounds of the rain hitting the pavement for example. Very cool. Makes you feel like it's raining in the room.

Dedciated speaker for Atmos is the way to go, making Atmos a very good upgrade and worth the extra effort putting up 2-4 speakers up high on the wall or in the ceiling above.

I shall consider it, then; thank you.

Here's something that you can perhaps answer, as well -- being that I already have in-ceiling speakers left over from the ones that were already installed in our living room ceiling when we bought our house (SpeakerCraft AIM models), could these be re-arranged to be used as Atmos/DTS:X arrays?

All we're using right now are two of the in-ceiling speakers for the standard surround channels, so could the extra in-ceiling speakers we're not using be used for the overhead mapping effects?

Of course, I understand that I would need a new AVR to take advantage of the Atmos/DTS:X soundtracks...

[Caesu]

I would probably have the ceiling speaker changed to atmos and let the new receiver do the calibrations to compensate.

If you have in celing speakers as side surrounds, then I would have to think they are in a really odd place as a bullet for example should whiz side to side not top to bottom?

Can you put actual side surrounds beside the couch on stands and have them at or near ear level as per atmos guidelines?

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by Caesu

I would probably have the ceiling speaker changed to atmos and let the new receiver do the calibrations to compensate.

What do you mean "have the ceiling speakers changed to Atmos"...do you mean get rid of the surround speakers we're using now that are ceiling-installed? That brings me to:

If you have in celing speakers as side surrounds, then I would have to think they are in a really odd place as a bullet for example should whiz side to side not top to bottom?

The surround in-ceiling speakers are located just to the left and right and above the primary seating position; they actually sound fine for front-to-back effects panning and even side-to-side panning on DVDs and Blu-rays that include six-plus-channels of encoded information.

Can you put actual side surrounds beside the couch on stands and have them at or near ear level as per atmos guidelines?

I had small Polk R15 bookshelves (which now serve duty as speakers in our workout room) on Sanus stands in a previous system in an apartment in which the two surrounds were in back of the couch; it was not only unsightly, it just didn't seem to work all that well -- but that being said, there's no way to make that work in our current setup.

What I'm asking is, we have "leftover" in-ceiling SpeakerCraft speakers we're not using still installed in the living room ceiling, and couldn't these be taken out and "re-installed" in proper positions for an Atmos setup (also in the ceiling)?

[frogmort]

I don't know as much about this as some, but if your surround speakers are in the ceiling and you use the other speakers for the Atmos ceiling speakers, you won't be getting the separation needed. In a standard 7.1 setup, the surrounds should be a foot or two above ear level, but with an Atmos setup you should have your side and rear surrounds just a bit lower to get greater separation from the ceiling speakers.

Edit: If your SpeakerCraft speakers are decent in-ceiling speakers they should work, I would think.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by frogmort

I don't know as much about this as some, but if your surround speakers are in the ceiling and you use the other speakers for the Atmos ceiling speakers, you won't be getting the separation needed. In a standard 7.1 setup, the surrounds should be a foot or two above ear level, but with an Atmos setup you should have your side and rear surrounds just a bit lower to get greater separation from the ceiling speakers.

Edit: If your SpeakerCraft speakers are decent in-ceiling speakers they should work, I would think.

Thanks Frog.

I'm confused, though; first you say I wouldn't be getting the separation needed, but then you mentioned the SpeakerCraft in-ceiling models SHOULD work...

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Thanks Frog.

I'm confused, though; first you say I wouldn't be getting the separation needed, but then you mentioned the SpeakerCraft in-ceiling models SHOULD work...

I was saying that your side surrounds and/or rear surrounds in a 5.1 or 7.1 setup should not be way up in the ceiling if you are also going to be installing Atmos speakers in the ceiling. In a 7.1.4 setup your 7 speakers should not be way up in the ceiling, but the 4 speakers should be in the ceiling. That way you are getting better separation between the 7 surround speakers and the 4 in the ceiling.

[rubystone356]

I recently got a atmos/dtsx receiver and speaker placement set up. I have two front height speakers. I have two speakers for left and right surround at ear level.
It works fine for me.. no need for ceiling speakers.

its about the separation of the sound, when you got the proper receiver for it.. takes it on different level that is better. It makes you feel the sound. like a bubble or dome.
Its very differnt from a simple 5.1 or 7.1 system.

Jacob

[IntelliVolume]

I think I may just skip the whole Atmos/DTS:X thing and perhaps stick with a 7.1 arrangement in the future...