Upgrading the Definitive Technology BP2000 Speakers

[Big Daddy]

I recently performed surgery on my Definitive Technology BP2000 speakers and replaced all their drivers with completely different (in my opinion better) drivers. The BP2000 speakers are bipolar and use very sophisticated design. Their wiring is not very easy to follow. Every inch of my body hurts from carrying these massive speakers. It would probably be useful to start with some introduction.

The Definitive Technology BP2000 speakers were introduced in 1995. They were among the first speakers that had built-in powered subwoofers. The built-in subwoofers were not LFE subwoofers. They were meant to provide the speakers with low frequency extension. The 15 inch subwoofers are not the typical subwoofers with an upper bass frequency limit of around 150Hz - 200Hz. They extend way beyond that to have a seamless . The subwoofers are meant to be fed with full-range signal. You can use speaker wires or an RCA cable to feed full-range signal to the subwoofers. A sophisticated Linkwitz Riley crossover system takes care of the frequencies between the subwoofers and the midrange/tweeter drivers. They have a level control and a low frequency equalization control. The level control works in conjunction with a gain sensitivity button to vary the overall level of the subwoofer section in relation to the rest of the system. The gain sensitivity button varies the input sensitivity to give you a greater range of levels.

The BP2000 speakers are bipolar. They have two 6.5 inch midrange drivers and a one inch aluminum driver on the front and exactly the same drivers on the back of the speakers. They use MTM (D’Appolito) driver arrangement with the tweeter placed slightly to the side of the front and rear baffles so that the two woofers are closer to each other. The cabinets of the speakers are very solid with plenty of braces. Plenty of foam and polyfill are used inside the cabinet to provide enough sound dampening. The drivers on the front and back are separated from each other and the subwoofer has its own dedicated chamber.

Specifications

Dimmensions: 50"H, 9"W, 16 7/8 /8 "D
Weight: 120 lbs each
Frequency Response: 15Hz - 30kHz
Efficiency: 90 dB
Impedance: Compatible with 4-8 ohm outputs
Built-in Subwoofer Amplifier: 300 watts RMS
Tweeters: Two 1" (25 mm) aluminum dome tweeter (one in the front and one in the back)
Midrange: Four 6 ½" (17 cm) high definition cast-magnesium basket polymer drivers (two on the front and two on the back)
Subwoofer: One 15" (38.1 cm) subwoofer on the side


Some Images and Detailed Information:

Reviews:

The reviews of BP2000 speakers were excellent. I myself found out that the speakers are extremely well made. The cabinets are very rigid with lots of bracing and dampening material. Their performance was far better than speakers that cost several times more. Although the price of $3,000 a pair in 1995 sounds like a lot, these were among a few high-end speakers that were worth every penny. There are plenty of outrageously-priced speakers around with absolutely nothing significant in their design or performance that can justify their price. A lot of credit should be given to the Definitive Technology founder/designer, Sandy Gross.

The following reviews of BP2000 speakers were by the late Julian Hirsch in Stereo Magazine (September 1995) and Brent Butterworth in Home Theater Technology magazine (November 1995):

[Big Daddy]

I have owned these speakers since 1996. They have served me extremely well. Recently, I was subjected to a severe case of speakers upgrade-itis. Most people in my position would think about selling their previous speakers and buying new ones. Being a bit crazy, I am not like most people. I prefer to upgrade my equipment myself and suffer the countless sleepless nights of planning, researching, purchasing, modifying, and dealing with all the frustrations. When you do the upgrade work yourself, the most often problem that you are faced with is dealing with parts that don’t fit or work.

I decided to replace all the drivers for the following reasons:

• Craziness.
• Enhanced performance.
• The drivers are getting around 18 years old and may be a good idea to replace them.
• Perhaps, there have been some technological advancements in driver material and manufacturing.
• Preferred to have silk dome tweeters instead of aluminum dome tweeters.
• Wanted to try midrange drivers with phase guides and higher efficiency. My intention was to replace the front midrange drivers and not the rear ones so that the sound coming from the front of the speakers is a few dBs higher than the sound from the rear of the speakers. This is along the line of the new Definitive Technology Super Tower speakers. According to Definitive Technology, the new approach to bipolar speaker design called Forward Focused Bipolar Array, combines the benefits of bipolar designs with the pinpoint localization of images typical of traditional forward-radiating speakers.
• Replace the 15" subwoofers with a new driver with enhanced frequency response and higher sensitivity.
• Adding external super tweeters to enhance the upper frequency range.

The two BP2000 speakers are mirror image of one another. One has the front tweeter and the subwoofer on the right side and the other one has the front tweeter and the subwoofer on the left side.

The Left Speaker With Original Mid-Woofers and New Tweeter




The Right Speaker With Original Drivers

REPLACING THE TWEETERS

Each BP2000 speaker has two identical tweeters, one in the front and one in the back. Their location are between the two midrange drivers in an MTM type arrangements. One tweeter is placed toward the left edge of the baffle and the other tweeter is placed toward the right edge of the baffle on opposite side of the speaker. The tweeters are placed closer to the edges of the baffles in order to decrease the distance between the two midrange drivers. This has the effect of reducing lobing errors and improving the off-axis response of the speaker.

Tweeter Requirements:

• Driver Diameter: Exactly 3 inches.
• Impedance of the driver must be 6 Ohms.
• Sensitivity: >= 90dB
• Maximum Mounting Depth: 3 inches.
• Frequency Response: The upper limit should preferably be beyond 20,000 Hz.
• Power Tolerance: Sufficient power tolerance.
• Optional Requirement: The stock tweeters are aluminum tweeter. I preferred to replace them with silk-dome tweeters.

After an exhausting search on the Internet, I finally found the Vifa D27TG-35-06 1" Silk Dome Tweeter to meet almost all of the above conditions.

Vifa D27TG-35-06 Tweeter Specifications:
Power handling: 25 watts RMS / 50 watts max
VCdia: 1"
Impedance: 6 ohms
Re: 4.7 ohms
Frequency response: 880-30,000 Hz
Fs: 880 Hz
SPL: 92.6 dB 2.83V/1m
Overall diameter: 4.10"
Cutout diameter: 3"
Depth: 1.25"

The Stock Tweeter (Left) and the New Wifa Tweeter (Right)

ADDING LCY-100K SUPER TWEETERS

Craziness did not stop with replacing the tweeters. I had to do something else and that something else cost me a lot of money. The final step was to add a pair of ribbon super tweeters. Let’s hope this is the final step. Super tweeters cost from a couple of hundred dollars to a couple of thousand dollars. I bought a pair of LCY 100K super tweeters for about $580, including tax and shipping. Their frequency response is rated up to 100kHz with two built-in crossover settings. They also have a beautiful metallic case with locks.

LCY-100K Super Tweeter Specifications:
Frequency Response: 7KHz-100KHz (-18dB/oct built-in HP filter)
Sensitivity (2.83V / 1M) : 10KHz, 96dB (Switching right when viewed from the rear), 13KHz, 92dB (Switching left when viewed from the rear)
Nominal Impedance : 8O
Magnet Type: Neodymium magnet
Ribbon Effective Area: 375mm2
Ribbon Thickness : 0.006mm
Nominal Power Handling: 300W
Price per Pair : USD 598 / HKD 4580

Attaching them is very easy. You simply connect them to the binding posts of the main speakers and place them on top of your speakers. You can tweak their position and direction a little bit until you get the desired sound.


REPLACING THE MIDRANGE DRIVERS

Each BP2000 speaker has a total of four midrange drivers. Two of them are in the front and two are in the rear of the speakers. They are identical and are wired together in a bipolar configuration. The impedance of each driver is 4 Ohms. The front and rear drivers are isolated from each other by a solid bracket between them. As a result, the mounting depth of each midrange driver could not exceed 3 inches.

Requirements:

• Driver Diameter: Exactly 6.5 inches.
• Impedance of the driver must be 4 Ohms.
• Sensitivity: >= 90dB
• Maximum Mounting Depth: 3 inches.
• Frequency Response: As wide as possible.
• Power Tolerance: Sufficient power tolerance.
• Optional Requirement: A driver with Phase Plugs would be preferred.

After an exhausting search on the Internet, I finally found the PowerBass 4XL-65-92 4XL-6592 6.5" Midrange Speaker Driver to meet almost all of the above conditions.

PowerBass 4XL-65-92 6.5" Mid Range Specifications:

• Paper/Laminated cone
• Aluminum phase plug
• Accordion style cloth surround
• Chrome push input terminals
• Diameter Size: 6.5 in
• Power Handling (RMS): 100 watts
• Power Handling (Peak): 200 watts
• Nominal Impedance: 4 ohm
• Voice Coil Size: 2 in KSV Voice Coil
• Frequency Response: 100 Hz - 10000 Hz
• Sensitivity: 92 dB
• Motor Structure: 35 oz.
• Mounting Depth: 2.8 in

Nomex paper (NSV), Kapton (KSV), Aluminium (ASV, AL), Til (TSV), Kraft Paper (PSV).
AL (Aluminium Lock)
KSV (Kapton, Polyimide Film)
PSV (Kraft Paper SV)
NSV (Nomex SV)
BASV (Black Aluminium SV)

Phase Plug Technology

http://www.preference-audio.com/phaseplug.htm

In any conventional loudspeaker, the highest frequencies of audio emanate from the area around the center of the cone and the lower frequencies are produced by the area of the cone that is farther from the center. In fact, the distance from the center at which a sound wave will come off a loudspeaker cone is directly related to its frequency. This helps explain why larger cone loudspeakers are usually capable of producing more bass.

Due to the shape of the conventional loudspeaker cone, the higher frequency sound waves tend to collide at a focal point. This causes phase distortion and a loss in clarity. As a result, accuracy and transparency suffer. This also has detrimental effects on the realism of the sound environments created by today's high fidelity digital audio and surround sound systems.

The phase plug pole piece extension improves driver performance and clarity by deflecting delicate midrange audio out into the sound space and minimizing distortion producing collisions.

A while ago, I sent the Fostex 206E drivers in my DIY super tower speakers for an upgrade. A new Phase Plug was added to the driver to improve its performance. Read all about it in THIS POST.

Additional References on Phase Guides:

http://www.decware.com/paper79.htm
http://www.decware.com/paper46.htm
http://www.uaudio.com/blog/understanding-audio-phase/

The Two Midrange Openings




The Front Side of the Stock Midrange Driver (Left) and the New PowerBass Driver (Right)




The Back Side Stock the Midrange Driver (Left) and the New PowerBass Driver (Right)

REPLACING THE 15 INCH SUBWOOFER DRIVERS

Requirements:

• Driver Diameter: Exactly 15 inches.
• Impedance of the driver must be 4 Ohms.
• Sensitivity: >= 90dB
• Maximum Mounting Depth: 8 inches.
• Frequency Response: From around 20Hz to the around 2,000Hz. The typical 15" subwoofer driver extends up to around 200Hz and has a mounting depth exceeding 10 inches. The built-in 15" subwoofers in the Definitive Technology BP2000 are not LFE subwoofers. They are added to extend the low frequency perfomance of the speakers. In that respect, they are different than the Definitive Technology BP7000 series speakers. Although the 15-inch drivers of the BP2000s have their own dedicated 300 watts amplifiers, they have to be given a full-range signal and not an LFE signal. This can be done either with speaker wires or separately with RCA cables. The RCA cables must be connected to the pre-outs for the main (front channels) on the back of the receiver/processor.
• Power Tolerance: Sufficient power tolerance.

After an exhausting search on the Internet, I finally found the Mavin Model EM-TL3806Y-4 15 Inch woofers to meet almost all of the above conditions.

Mavin Model EM-TL3806Y Specifications:
Rubber Surround
Minimum SPL of 92 dB from 23 Hz. to 3kHz. 89.5 dB @ 20 Hz.
Magnet: 9 pounds
Impedance: 4 ohm
Power Rating: 500 Watt
Vented Voice Coil to help displace heat and improve performance
Size: 15.125"
Cutout Diameter: 13.8125"
Depth: 6"

The 15" Subwoofer Opening




The Stock Subwoofer (Left) and the New Mavin Subwoofer (Right)

This is the picture of the right BP2000 speaker after all the drivers are installed.

[Big Daddy]

Performance and Evaluation

Preliminary grade: A+++

I believe I have created the best sounding Definitive Technology speakers ever. This includes the BP7000 Super Towers and all Mythos speakers. I will also include all the speakers from Golden Ear Technology. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. It appears that Sandy Gross is in trouble.

These are without a doubt among the best sounding speakers that I have heard. I have heard many speakers costing over $50,000 and a few over $100,000. They can easily compete with the best speakers ever produced.


To be continued.

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.
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[prerich]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Performance and Evaluation

Preliminary grade: A+++

I believe I have created the best sounding Definitive Technology speakers ever. This includes the BP7000 Super Towers and all Mythos speakers. I will also include all the speakers from Golden Ear Technology. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. It appears that Sandy Gross is in trouble.

These are without a doubt among the best sounding speakers that I have heard. I have heard many speakers costing over $50,000 and a few over $100,000. They can easily compete with the best speakers ever produced.


To be continued.

.
.
.

You're a mad, mod man!!!!

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by prerich

You're a mad, mod man!!!!

Thanks. It was a lot of work. I am going to change my name to Mad Mod Big Daddy.

I am now stuck with a lot of midrange drivers and tweeters. I also have several subwoofers from this project and a few other past Mad Mod projects. They are all in working conditions. I should start selling them at bargain prices to make room for additional crazy upgrades.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Thanks. It was a lot of work. I am going to change my name to Mad Mod Big Daddy.

I am now stuck with a lot of midrange drivers and tweeters. I also have several subwoofers from this project and a few other past Mad Mod projects. They are all in working conditions. I should start selling them at bargain prices to make room for additional crazy upgrades.

I'm listening ....pm me with what ya got...I might be interested

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Thanks. It was a lot of work. I am going to change my name to Mad Mod Big Daddy.

I am now stuck with a lot of midrange drivers and tweeters. I also have several subwoofers from this project and a few other past Mad Mod projects. They are all in working conditions. I should start selling them at bargain prices to make room for additional crazy upgrades.

Bd, where do you buy your super-tweeters from?

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Performance and Evaluation

Preliminary grade: A+++

I believe I have created the best sounding Definitive Technology speakers ever. This includes the BP7000 Super Towers and all Mythos speakers. I will also include all the speakers from Golden Ear Technology. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. It appears that Sandy Gross is in trouble.

I've seen some serious trash talk before, but that was Lakers vs. Celtics, 1985. I pretty much called that the gold standard for hard-ass woofing.

I've got to rank this right up there with that. No question. Trust my judgement, I grew up in Compton and Watts.

I know world-class woofing when I hear it. And frankly, I am impressed.

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

These are without a doubt among the best sounding speakers that I have heard. I have heard many speakers costing over $50,000 and a few over $100,000. They can easily compete with the best speakers ever produced.

Now, I would class this as bluster, save for one fact: the man is ready to back it up. That's what separates the foghorn from the howitzer, if you know what I mean.

I think Big Daddy is serious, and from the quality of gear he shoved in those things, he may be right.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by josh6113

Now that's thinking outside the box big daddy...

Actually, it is thinking outside two boxes of 120 pounds each.

Originally Posted by v_squared123

Two thumbs up. And I couldnt view some pictures, especially the comparison pics of the drivers! Some loaded, some didn't so I didn't think it was on my end. Anyway you can fix it?

Thank you. There is nothing wrong with the comparison pictures. You have to fix your end.

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I've seen some serious trash talk before, but that was Lakers vs. Celtics, 1985. I pretty much called that the gold standard for hard-ass woofing.

I've got to rank this right up there with that. No question. Trust my judgement, I grew up in Compton and Watts.

I know world-class woofing when I hear it. And frankly, I am impressed.



Now, I would class this as bluster, save for one fact: the man is ready to back it up. That's what separates the foghorn from the howitzer, if you know what I mean.

I think Big Daddy is serious, and from the quality of gear he shoved in those things, he may be right.

I am just having fun. Don't take anything I write too seriously.

[Goat1]

I want to see pics..

[picture_shooter]

I really enjoyed this reading of your thread and just wanted to drop in and say "Awesome JOB!!" by replacing all the drivers, tweets and woofers in these amazing towers!!


I have the BP7006s and even though they are the smallest brother of the ST series, I am very curious if I was to change out the Mids and tweets with something little more brighter I would get more smiles.

Since you mentioned the words "GoldenEars"; I been looking very hard at the Triton IIs and IIIs and both of these series made me smile listening to them on a little NAD 65watt receiver!

........ but my question is "what if" I was to replace the mids / tweets on the 7006s, would they improve?? hummmmmmmmmm

[abracadaben]

Hi there,
just picking up this thread now which I found very interesting. Well I just got my BP2000 this week and have a couple questions (Im noobie but quick learner)

1) Im not a speaker modder so out of curiosity, how do you recognize a dying/tired speaker?
2) regarding the Mavin Sub, is this an upgrade worth making? what about tone matching and crossover? Deftech had recommended me a 3rd party 15" replacement but its only 63hz on the low end. so I think the Mavin sounds like a good option.
3) I have a replacement sock, how do you change them safely?
4) would you recommend to replace all the 6.5 woofers at once or you can do just 1 by 1? assuming you use the same as stock woofer.

thx

[Tuesday630]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Performance and Evaluation

Preliminary grade: A+++

I believe I have created the best sounding Definitive Technology speakers ever. This includes the BP7000 Super Towers and all Mythos speakers. I will also include all the speakers from Golden Ear Technology. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. It appears that Sandy Gross is in trouble.

These are without a doubt among the best sounding speakers that I have heard. I have heard many speakers costing over $50,000 and a few over $100,000. They can easily compete with the best speakers ever produced.


To be continued.

.
.
.

Perhaps I was a bit impetuous, but I ordered the same speaker to replace my sticky sub woofer in the side of one of my BP2000. I say "sticky" because my kid poked a stick through it, and I hence described the resulting sound as "sticky."

Anyway, I failed to read to the bottom of this thread, where someone pointed out the smart idea of ordering the speaker from Definitive. Yes, that would have been better. None the less, I received and installed the other speaker that the original poster mentioned. It's working fine so far. If it ever blows a fuse, I'll know why, but so far it has not and sounds perfectly matched.

[talon123]

At the beginning it says the intention was to only replace the mid-range. Can anyone confirm this is what was done? I am looking to try this but not sure whether to order 4 or 8 mid-range drivers. Any help would be appreciated!

[Gioxtream]

Almost 24 hours and I can not find anywhere the schematics on this unit.No service manuals at all.

Can someone please post the internal net volume of those 15" woofers?

Please. Don't be confused. I am looking for only the internal net volume of the 15" woofer chamber.I am not looking for the mid and tweeters chamber.Only the 15" woofer chamber.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Gioxtream.

[Benimaru7]

Just joined up to say a massive 'thank you' to Big Daddy.

I've been avid fan of Definitive technology speakers, but recently had that itch to upgrade. I've always been happy with my 3000TL but found them a touch harsh on the high end at louder volumes.

After pondering selling and trying something new I came across this great thread, and for a smaller outlay I thought I'd try swapping out the tweeters with the Vifa units, all I can say is wow!! The difference compared to the aluminium Definitive units was surprising, far smoother and none of the harshness, they also blend wonderfully using the existing crossover and woofer/subs.

They still need to be run in, but as you can tell I'm really happy, plus I don't have to sell my kit! Next up is the centre and surrounds so pans all sound the same. Just to say again thanks Big a daddy for your research!

[chipgallo]

Wondering if there is someone who can update the speakers in my BP2000 towers, near Harpers Ferry, WV (so MD, DC, VA or PA)? No audible problems right now but it never hurts to know where to get these things done.

[talon123]

Hello,

We are looking to do this. Would you say that an average person with basic skills could complete this realistically?

Any input/advice would be appreciated!

Thanks!

[Chriscolt]

An FYI to all of you guys who own Def Tech BP2000, 2000TL, 2002, 2004, CLR3000, BPX - the series made from about 1995 to 1999. First be very careful with so called dealers who sell parts on e-bay and charge different prices for replacement drivers that are the same size but for different cabinet sizes like for example the BP2000 vs the 2000TL or the 2004 or the BPX - the 1" (25mm) Tweeters are all the same in these units and should cost the same - the only exception is for the center channel speakers which all have a shielded version of the same driver (unless you are still using a CRT TV you need not worry about that either), same goes for the mid-bass drivers - if they are the same size, they are the same driver. You already mentioned the difference between the 2000 vs 2000TL subwoofers 4 ohm vs 75 ohm also amplifier is 300W vs 500 Watt respectively (2000 vs 2000TL). Secondly, before you go crazy trying to find replacement drivers - check with Definitive Tech first, I made the mistake of spending dozens of hours researching parts dealers listening to stories of how this and that part are no longer made and how the tweeter from the BPX is not the same as the 2000TL etc... and I found that Def Tech not only had everything I needed but they were on average 20-40% less expensive and will work with you on multiple part orders (I had 3 blown tweeters and one blown subwoofer) especially if you bought the stuff new from an authorized DEF TECH dealer back in the day. I didn't realize I had 3 bad tweeters - I thought my hearing was starting to go or my Onkyo was finally giving out as I kept turning up the volume or turning on "closed captions" cause I couldn't understand the dialog - what an idiot I was - testing the tweeters is a simple exercise in putting your hand over the driver while listening to anything at normal volume and if it is working you will know right away if you cup your hand over it and remove it. With the cone speakers it is even easier, just feel the cone as you are playing anything that uses the speakers you are testing (obviously, you need to put on something that is using 7 channels if you are testing the rear surrounds or use the test tone from your AVR)..

Trying to replace the drivers in these DEF TECH speakers is NOT recommended as one of the gentlemen on the forum tried to explain - due to the complexity of the cross over network the Fs (resonant frequency) and all of the other Thiele / Small parameters for each of the drivers is precisely matched to the cabinet and crossover network so that the overall frequency response and driver levels not to mention the dispersion characteristics of each driver, provide the best tone, SPL and sound dispersion (directionality).

If you are interested in designing your own speakers just google "designing HiFi loudspeakers" and you will see articles, books, etc... describing how much engineering goes into the design and construction. It is fun and is great to experiment if you have the knowledge or want to learn and if you have lots of time and money to experiment and buy parts that you may not ever use.

But if you just want to "Fix" a couple of bad drivers - just call DEF TECH - you will most likely save money, time and a lot of aggravation trying to determine which 3rd party driver will work correctly with your particular speaker cabinet and crossover and there isn't a lot of detailed specifications on the design and engineering of the DEF TECH crossover network and cabinet design .

BTW - in 90% of the cases a speaker either works or it doesn't. My speakers are over 20 years old, in the 7 Def Tech cabinets there are a total of 22 mid-bass drivers, 11 tweeters, and 5 subwoofers w/amps.

In all those years I had to replace 1 x 500 Watt Sub-Amplifier which was dead on arrival (new), 1 x 15" Subwoofer and 3 x 1" tweeters (recently), I thoroughly tested the other drivers by running a Frequency scan on the other speakers and using a Radio Shack Analog DB meter and my ears - made sure the rest of the drivers were operating - also checked al the rubber surrounds - all good. Voice coils are what usually goes (other than surround rot) and when they go, they either work or they don't - when they don't, disconnect the driver from the rest of the system and use an ohm meter on the lowest scale to see if you have a reading - 9 of 10 times you will see an open circuit indicating a blown voice coil (usually fried) - if it is a mid-bass or subwoofer you can get the driver rebuilt/new voice coil, but DEF TECH is so reasonable I would buy a new driver and maybe get the old one rebuilt/new voice coil as a spare if price is reasonable enough (half cost of new driver). Tweeters are not worth fixing - throw away and replace for like $30 bucks.

My system cost a small fortune (IMO) when it was new - I have 2 x BP2000TL & CLR3000 in the front, 2 x BP2002TL on the sides and 2 x BPX for the rear surrounds - I really wanted the 5 subwoofers. I run the speakers with an Onkyo TX -DS989Ver2 - last of the high current great sounding Onkyo amplifiers that can actually drive speakers down at 4 ohm loads at high levels without tripping the internal protection circuit.. Since the Onkyo is pre-HDMI, I am using the newest Oppo 4K BluRay (UDP 203) with the 7.1 analog output back into the Onkyo analog inputs to do all the True HD and DTS HD sound decoding (Onkyo is just a power amp) until I replace the Onkyo - No more AVRs for me - It will be separates - looking at possibly the Marantz, Outlaw, Emotiva, Lexicon - More research required, just picked up the LG OLED65B6P & the Oppo UDP 203 4K UHD Universal Disc player, not ready to spend another $6K to replace my sound processor/Amp yet - either way I don't plan on doing any replacements or upgrades with what I think is already perfection - my 7 channel Def Tech Speaker system....

Chris

[p79alvarado]

i didn't think of doing something like this. now i want to