How audio is stored on film

[Redneck9]

Originally Posted by blu-ray_girl_fan

Lemme say this.

The Dolby Digital 5.1 tracks on DVDs are better quality than the audio tracks that are used in movie theaters.

No! not even...

This Is how (film based) theater audio works:

DTS: There is a time coding on the print that syncs with CD. Usually there are 2 or 3 discs, No more that 3 discs. disc 1 contains preview tracks, while discs 2 and 3 contain the feature track. Often times you will hear static during the previews because the preview disc may not contain the track for that particular title. Another reason static may be present is if the order of the previews on the film is not identical to the layout of the previews on the preview CD(sometimes distributors want the previews to be seen in a specific order and don't care to mirror the previews with the disc) Other times the projectionist could care less about the order of the previews when building a print up at 3:30 in the morning. As far as soundtrack quality goes sometimes the engineer is forced to bounce the soundtrack when mixing for the film because each channel in allocated a certain amount of space. Other times the feature requires the use of all three disc trays(Return of the King) Why? the movie is longer and needs the extra disc.

DD: Is five pulse lines on the side of the print, why 5? because the sub uses low channel crossover created by the in house equipment. If there is a large dynamic soundtrack it requires the projectionist to turn up the PA level(action films) Comedies often don't require such a boost but that varies from print to print. These tracks are also closer to the master, the engineer is never forced to bounce tracks to save space. Dolby is also more durable and the print can be viewed more times, dts soundtracks have a lifespan of 2 or 3 months.

Which is better? Dolby hands down!!! Happier patrons, Fewer technical issues. It's just all around better.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

No! not even...

This Is how (film based) theater audio works:

DTS: There is a time coding on the print that syncs with CD. Usually there are 2 or 3 discs, No more that 3 discs. disc 1 contains preview tracks, while discs 2 and 3 contain the feature track. Often times you will hear static during the previews because the preview disc may not contain the track for that particular title. Another reason static may be present is if the order of the previews on the film is not identical to the layout of the previews on the preview CD(sometimes distributors want the previews to be seen in a specific order and don't care to mirror the previews with the disc) Other times the projectionist could care less about the order of the previews when building a print up at 3:30 in the morning. As far as soundtrack quality goes sometimes the engineer is forced to bounce the soundtrack when mixing for the film because each channel in allocated a certain amount of space. Other times the feature requires the use of all three disc trays(Return of the King) Why? the movie is longer and needs the extra disc.

This is not true. I work in the cinema industry and have worked on installs for movie projectors for more than 30 years. There are two discs readers (cd-rom) and three disc readers (disc only) for DTS. DTS timecode reads the data ahead of time and reads it off the disc, there is no difference in what order you play the trailers. The pop sound is from the splice, the dts reader reverts to dolby sr/srd and then back again when the dts time code is read.

Yes, there are trailer discs for dts only, however most features contain the DTS information on the actual feature discs and movie prints always have "attached" trailers on the print.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

N
DD: Is five pulse lines on the side of the print, why 5? because the sub uses low channel crossover created by the in house equipment. If there is a large dynamic soundtrack it requires the projectionist to turn up the PA level(action films) Comedies often don't require such a boost but that varies from print to print. These tracks are also closer to the master, the engineer is never forced to bounce tracks to save space. Dolby is also more durable and the print can be viewed more times, dts soundtracks have a lifespan of 2 or 3 months.

Which is better? Dolby hands down!!! Happier patrons, Fewer technical issues. It's just all around better.

Dolby SRD (Dolby Digital) for cinemas places the information for Dolby Digital between the sprocket holes on the soundtracks side of the print. Timecode for DTS is next to Dolby SR optical and SDDS is located on the edge of both sides of the film print.

Dolby SRD in the movie theatres is more compressed than DTS.

[Redneck9]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Yes, there are trailer discs for dts only, however most features contain the DTS information on the actual feature discs and movie prints always have "attached" trailers on the print.

I never had to use the CD-ROMs.

Not all trailers come attached. (Somehow You forgot about updating the trailers every thursday night...) The equipment I used often times wasn't able to find the corresponding track on the disc.

Dolby SRD (Dolby Digital) for cinemas places the information for Dolby Digital between the sprocket holes on the soundtracks side of the print. Timecode for DTS is next to Dolby SR optical and SDDS is located on the edge of both sides of the film print.

Dolby SRD in the movie theatres is more compressed than DTS.

Not when playing a "5 line dolby track"!!! I guarantee 5 line dolby sounds better than compressed dolby. Technically 5 line dolby digital isn't even dolby digital, It's five track analog with the sub matrixed out.

Quad soundtrack prints are a whole new ballgame. I'm betting it costs sooo much more to process a quadtrack print. The going rate for dual track prints was 300,000 USD, that's just what the distributors charged the theater if they destroyed a print. I however have only worked with duel track prints (which contain only DTS and DOLBY) If the DTS were to ever cut out then the stereo from the dolby side would be read.

Come to think of It, there is only one auditorium in my city with a Sony setup. Quadtrack prints haven't even been around for 30 years, whatever dude... Most places are set up for duel. Quad and duel setups wouldn't be interchangeable because you'd have the sound projected onto the screen, the lenses aren't compatible.

(You know what you need to say to end this debate, so just go ahead and say it)

[WiWavelength]

Redneck, I say this not to poke fun, but please quit while you are behind. Both this thread and your other recent thread...

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...92#post7044292

...have become a comedy of errors. You are proof positive that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing because you are taking that little bit of knowledge, then forming incorrect conclusions and spewing misinformation right and left.

I am completely serious when I say that you do not know what you are talking about.

AJ

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Redneck, I say this not to poke fun, but please quit while you are behind. Both this thread and your other recent thread...

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...92#post7044292

...have become a comedy of errors. You are proof positive that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing because you are taking that little bit of knowledge, then forming incorrect conclusions and spewing misinformation right and left.

I am completely serious when I say that you do not know what you are talking about.

AJ

I agree.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

Quad soundtrack prints are a whole new ballgame.

Quad soundtrack prints are not new at all, Warner was one of the very first companies to make all 35mm with a quad format, this was in the late 90's. Fox followed.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

he going rate for dual track prints was 300,000 USD,

Not so, a movie print is about $1500 for a 35mm feature. Does not matter how many formats are on it.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

distributors charged the theater if they destroyed a print.

The distributor never ever charges the theatre for the print.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

Most places are set up for duel. Quad and duel setups wouldn't be interchangeable because you'd have the sound projected onto the screen, the lenses aren't compatible.

You are not sure what you are talking about. The lense has nothing to do with the soundtrack being projected on the screen, the soundtrack is always being projected, an aperture is what blocks out what is being projected on the screen, not the lense.

[Redneck9]

Not so, a movie print is about $1500 for a 35mm feature. Does not matter how many formats are on it.

I was told it cost 2 dollars a foot to process @ a foot and a half per second. they said the prints were worth that. I didn't keep the books...

The distributor never ever charges the theatre for the print. the production company charges 90% of the gross per ticket opening weekend. 70% for the next 2 weeks and 40% after that.

I didn't make the rules, just did what I was told.

You are not sure what you are talking about. The lense has nothing to do with the soundtrack being projected on the screen, the soundtrack is always being projected, an aperture is what blocks out what is being projected on the screen, not the lense.

Exactly I was guessing, I made it clear I've never been around quad tracks. Does the image rests differently on the film?

I've had the conversation IRL asking why our theater wasn't set up for sony, they said it wold be too much work and is not compatible.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

I was told it cost 2 dollars a foot to process @ a foot and a half per second. they said the prints were worth that. I didn't keep the books...

Well you were told wrong, the print is about $1500-$2000 a movie print, it is based on volume. The soundtrack does not cost all that much as everything is printed onto the film along with the image during the printing process.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

the distributor never ever charges the theatre for the print. the production company charges 90% of the gross per ticket opening weekend. 70% for the next 2 weeks and 40% after that.

I didn't make the rules, just did what I was told.

You do not deal with the production company, you deal with the distributor of the film when you want to play the movie ie (Warner releases some movies in the United States while EOne releases the same exact movie up North in Canada). There are two ways of achieving payouts for films, percentage based as well as flat rate. There is also a minimum payment which the theatre has to pay depending on attendance.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

Exactly I was guessing, I made it clear I've never been around quad tracks. Does the image rests differently on the film?
.

If you have ever handled a Warner Bros. or a Fox movie, then yes you have.

The soundtrack data for the SDDS information as well as the soundtrack data for the Dolby Digital data cannot possibly be projected onto the movie screen, in other words, the light from the projector does not pass through the information for SDDS or Dolby Digital. Dolby SR as well as the timecode for DTS are projected however the aperture plate blocks out that image before it it hits the lense. Make any sense?

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

Not when playing a "5 line dolby track"!!! I guarantee 5 line dolby sounds better than compressed dolby. Technically 5 line dolby digital isn't even dolby digital, It's five track analog with the sub matrixed out.

If you are referring to 05 Dolby SR vs 10 Dolby Digital SRD than yes, Dolby SR is not digital and is analog, it is also very difficult to hear the difference between the two in a movie cinema. However, it should be noted that SR is four-track vs SRD which is 6 track.

I personally prefer cinema analog over cinema digital.

[Redneck9]

Originally Posted by crackinhedz

I think you made your point.

Continue the discussion privately or start a new thread discussing the physical nature of audio stored on film.

Point being, stay on topic or thread closes. Not trying to keep this pissing match going any further.

I don't have the privileges to open a new thread, or I would.

one last thing before I stop posting; no derr about DTS not being around in '92 for ninja turtles. There is a pink linear track(dolby stereo track) on right of the picture, If you can adjust the output scaling on your tv/monitor/projector see for yourself.

He hasn't been able to answer a single question regarding film, anyone that installed projectors nationally would know the answers.(then dodges the questions)

Their is a photo of a man holding a clockwork orange print(which shows the linear track on the Right side. When DTS emerged they placed that on the left side)

*Also run a large output scaling on the Mystery Men DVD and you will again find pink linear lines on the right side(the DVD came from a print source)

I know there is a Jim carry DVD/Blu-ray out there that shows DTS overscan on the left side(I forgot which one)

-note- when looking for overscan audio you must use flat or scope transfers because pan and scan cuts the sides off.
Please create an offshoot topic thread.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

There is a pink linear track(dolby stereo track) on right of the picture, If you can adjust the output scaling on your tv/monitor/projector see for yourself.

That is fine that you can see the soundtrack on the right side of your tv monitor, however, that is not the case inside a movie theatre using 35mm film, if one were to not use an aperture plate, you would see the soundtrack projected on the left side of the movie screen. DTS timecode included.

[Spicoli]

[Blu-Velvet]

Um... the soundtrack is on the right of the picture (analog only) on 16mm film prints. The soundtrack is on the left of the picture on 35mm prints. The DTS timecode is located in a narrow area between the analog soundtrack (which may well be Dolby SR encoded) and the picture. If you think you're seeing timecode on the right on some Blu-ray or DVD or VHS copy, it apparently is some sort of video timecode and has absolutely no relation to the film soundtrack printed on the physical film.

As far as that black bar that appears in the middle of the picture on the screen? Or sometimes near the top or the bottom? That's basically only there whenever some incompetent and/or lazy slob in the projection booth can't figure out how to splice the film on the actual frame line. There are a few rare exceptions when lazy filmlab personnel in a rush order to get 2000 prints out to theatres on short notice assemble footage in a hurry and the film comes to the theatre that way direct from the lab. Also, it's only a black bar if the film is hard-matted to 1.85 or 1.66. If it's a scope print or a full-frame flat print, it will be a thin line across the middle of the screen (or top or bottom) instead of a thick black bar.

Regarding "ghosting" of the picture? Do you mean you have a shutter that is out of phase with the intermittent? Or do you even know what those terms refer to?

[Redneck9]

As far as that black bar that appears in the middle of the picture on the scree That's basically only there whenever some incompetent and/or lazy slob in the projection booth can't figure out how to splice the film on the actual frame line. There are a few rare exceptions when lazy filmlab personnel in a rush order to get 2000 prints out to theatres on short notice assemble footage in a hurry and the film comes to the theatre that way direct from the lab. Also, it's only a black bar if the film is hard-matted to 1.85 or 1.66. If it's a scope print or a full-frame flat print, it will be a thin line across the middle of the screen (or top or bottom) instead of a thick black bar.

No, it means the timing is off! A projector lamp flashes 24 times per second. If the flash doesn't sync with the film then you will see a black bar in the middle of the screen.(sort of like your cars timing belt)

Regarding "ghosting" of the picture? Do you mean you have a shutter that is out of phase with the intermittent? Or do you even know what those terms refer to?

Ghosting is caused if the Lamp is burning to bright/hot, some of the image will appear brighter(which can damage the print or start a fire) so the projectionist needs to adjust the position of the Lamp so the brightness is equal across the screen.

[Redneck9]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

That is fine that you can see the soundtrack on the right side of your tv monitor, however, that is not the case inside a movie theatre using 35mm film, if one were to not use an aperture plate, you would see the soundtrack projected on the left side of the movie screen. DTS timecode included.

I still have a 35mm trailer somewhere, If I find it I'll scan it in sou you can see it(i think it may have been 4 tracks rather than 5 it's been a while "dolby sr05" or whatever) It was 5 channel discreet I remember separate surrounds!!! Possibly that format matrixed both the center and the sub? I was reading over dolbycinema processor pdf manuals last night and realized that. I do know we needed dual track prints as well and we constantly had to sometimes call if they delivered the wrong format.

The place I was at must have ordered unusual prints.

[ZoetMB]

I had to check the date on the first posting to see if this was some really old thread. Why are we discussing 35mm sound formats at this late date? Film prints are quickly disappearing. The major film studios are producing few 35mm prints now and probably won't be producing any after the end of 2013. For better or worse, we're now living in a digital projection world.

And Mr. Redneck: I'm an ex-recording engineer who worked in cinema sound and those who criticized you are correct: you have little idea of what you're talking about. You seem to know just enough to be dangerous. If you want to know about digital sound formats, I suggest you do research in the now-defunct Recording Engineer/Producer and DB magazines as well as the still-existing Mix magazine and look for articles on film sound, especially those written by Larry Blake.

The image that someone posted of the Quad format is exactly right except that the Sony SDDS track also appears on the other side of the frame. The Sony SDDS format varied from the Dolby and DTS formats in that it had an option for 8 channels: 5 screen channels, stereo surround and a subwoofer track, although not that many films were released in that format.

And when Quad format isn't used, the non-used formats simply aren't there - everything else remains in the same place. There is only one DTS format and it's always been nothing more than a time code on the film synching to an external CD. Dolby Digital has always been between the sprocket holes. Sony SDDS has always been outside the sprocket holes. Both Dolby and DTS had an option (Dolby-EX, DTS-ES) for a derived center rear.

But again, unless one has a library of old film prints, it's all becoming pretty moot at this point as digital projection dominates.

Some historic movie sound firsts in the Dolby era:
Logan's Run (6/1976): 1st 70mm Dolby Discrete
A Star Is Born (12/1976): 1st Dolby Optical
Star Wars (5/1977): 1st 70mm Dolby "Baby Boom"
Superman (12/1978): experimental 70mm split surround on a few prints
Apocalypse Now (8/1979): 1st 70mm Dolby split surround
Against All Odds (1984): probably the last 35mm 4-track mag
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (11/1986): 1st 35mm Dolby SR

Dick Tracy (6/1990): 1st 70mm digital using the Kodak CDS system
Days of Thunder (6/1990): 1st 35mm digital using the Kodak CDS system
Batman Returns (6/1992): 1st Dolby Digital 35mm
Jurassic Park (6/1993): 1st DTS Digital 35mm
Last Action Hero (6/1993): 1st Sony SDDS 35mm (8 channel)

Star Wars: Episode 1 - The Phantom Menace (5/1999): 1st Dolby Digital EX
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (12/2001): probably 1st DTS-ES
Toy Story 3 (6/2010): 1st Dolby Surround 7.1
Brave (6/2012): 1st Dolby Atmos


And for the record, when projecting film, ghosting is not caused by an over-bright lamp -- it's caused by an out of sync shutter.

[Spicoli]

I have never seen a thread start off disputing a post from another thread.

[crackinhedz]

keep it respectful. Only warning.