7.1 Surround System or More Seats

[naturephoto1]

Hi All,

I am really struggling with the layout of the room that will be my listening room/home theater in the home that I am building. If I have to decide, would you suggest the 7.1 Surround System or go with the 5.1 Surround System and more seats? Or come up with some other seats/seating arrangement since the front seats were intended as reclining Theater Seats. The 5.1 System would save me a considerable amount of money, but that is not my main concern.

The room will be 19'4" long by 14'7" wide and we have to remove a closet at the entry to the room, move an air duct and install a door coming from the kitchen into the theater (rear wall). The amount of equipment, the size of the speakers and where to put a door into the room contribute to make this a real challenge. All of the components, amps, turntable, etc. are to go on the left side wall, but the racks will extend about 35" from the wall into the room. The first row of 3 seats are intended to be about 13.5 feet from the front wall where the 105" or so screen would go.

My speakers are large as well- we are making large mirror imaged line stage towers for the front speakers, a half tower for the center and quite possibly a set of towers for the side surrounds. Providing the side surround towers are to made, and I go with a 7.1 Surround System my rebuilt Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers would be used for the rear speakers. But the speaker cabinets are essentially a square 30" X 30" and about 10" deep. They would provide the best sound some distance from the wall and I would prepare special pedestals to lift them higher than the stock ones.

As a result, between installing the door into the room, the amount of space from the front row of seats, and the size of the Dahlquist DQ-10 cabinets, I am not sure if I can have both a 2nd row of seats and a 7.1 surround system.

Comments and suggestions gladly appreciated.

Rich

[SammyG]

I only have one row of seating with 7.1, but I really wish I had two. I don't need two rows of seating, but how awesome would it look. If you're not gonna have more than 3 people watching a movie, don't worry about the extra row. I'm gonna throw you a PM about a set of DQ-10's.

[Newmason]

I believe there is no such thing as "to much seating" For me, I much rather have open seats that can always be filled, where if you have to little seating and you have a group of people over, there wont be any problems with anyone trying to get comfortable. I would feel, its all about making yourself comfortable and always thinking about the comfort of your possible guest in the back of your head. At least thats the way I perceive it. From the sound of it, the room doesnt sound that big, so filling the room with great 5.1 sound shouldnt be to difficult. I'd go with the seats

Is there any possible way you could go with some in wall speakers for your rears? That might also solve the 7.1 and could still have your future expanded seating

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Newmason

I believe there is no such thing as "to much seating" For me, I much rather have open seats that can always be filled, where if you have to little seating and you have a group of people over, there wont be any problems with anyone trying to get comfortable. I would feel, its all about making yourself comfortable and always thinking about the comfort of your possible guest in the back of your head. At least thats the way I perceive it. From the sound of it, the room doesnt sound that big, so filling the room with great 5.1 sound shouldnt be to difficult. I'd go with the seats

Is there any possible way you could go with some in wall speakers for your rears? That might also solve the 7.1 and could still have your future expanded seating

I could go with in wall rear speakers. But, I have my rebuilt Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers which perform better than $10,000 speakers (and of course the in wall speakers) which would go to waste for usage if I built the large side surround towers and still went with a 7.1 surround system. If I used the Dahlquists for the side surrounds and went with a 5.1 surround system or used the Dahlquists for the side surrounds and used rear in wall speakers for the rears they would not be retired.

Regardless, I will need to watch closely where I install the door into the room.

I may possibly be able to use something like 2 of these for the rear seating with the Dahlquist DQ-10s for the rear speakers, but it would take some planning:



or possibly even 2 of these for the rear seating with the Dahlquist DQ-10s for the rear speakers:



Rich

[solarrdadd]

"the Dahlquists for the side surrounds and used rear in wall speakers for the rears they would not be retired."

I'd go with that, this way you get your extra seats and you get your 7.1

[TKNice]

Hi Richard, I added 7.1 to my setup not to long ago and I ended up with a couch on the back row. I dreaded this decision for weeks trying to figure out what would fit on my riser. Finally it occured to me that a sofa isn't the end of the world. Couples can hang out back there, a row of kids, whatever.

Just another thought.

[DIY_HD]

Ultimately, it boils down to how it sounds to you. Currently, only about 20% or less of BDs have 7.1 tracks on them. But when they do, they are usually fantastic. Only time will tell if that proportion increases or decreases. I had my sister over and played 3:10 to Yuma. When it was over, she had no socks. Would it have been the same with a 5.1 setup? I don't know, but I don't want to find out. JMHO

[Beta Man]

In-Walls for rear surrounds would be a good compromise...... Obviously it limits many of the higher end speakers you're probably looking at, but there are a good number of high end in-walls.....

I think Brain Sturgeon has some in-ceiling rears... that may be an option too.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

In-Walls for rear surrounds would be a good compromise...... Obviously it limits many of the higher end speakers you're probably looking at, but there are a good number of high end in-walls.....

I think Brain Sturgeon has some in-ceiling rears... that may be an option too.

I have spoken with Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company and I may not use the Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers possibly. We are again discussing making the surround line stage towers (modified from the mains) and designing some speakers with the same drivers and cross over parts as all of the other 5 speakers to be mounted on the wall and possibly in the corners for the rear 2 channels. But, we will have to look into this more carefully and determine the best design.

I will be sorry to have to take the Dahlquists out of the system though; they are that good and I do not intend to sell them.

Rich

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

I have spoken with Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company and I may not use the Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers possibly. We are again discussing making the surround line stage towers (modified from the mains) and designing some speakers with the same drivers and cross over parts as all of the other 5 speakers to be mounted on the wall and possibly in the corners for the rear 2 channels. But, we will have to look into this more carefully and determine the best design.

I will be sorry to have to take the Dahlquists out of the system though; they are that good and I do not intend to sell them.

Rich

There is absolutely no scientific or practical reason for surround speakers to be large. In almost all cases, using smaller surround speakers and having 2 or 4 subwoofers, properly placed in the middle of the walls or the four corners of the room is a much better idea.

My recommendation is to build a 7.4 theater with three identical vertical fronts, 4 smaller surrounds, 4 subwoofers, and more seats. Both Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA support many more speakers than 7.1. We may have a new disc format in the future with 12.4 audio support.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

There is absolutely no scientific or practical reason for surround speakers to be large. In almost all case, using smaller surround speakers and having 2 or 4 subwoofers, properly placed in the middle of the walls or the four corners of the room is a much better idea.

My recommendation is to build a 7.4 theater with three identical vertical fronts, 4 smaller surrounds, 4 subwoofers, and more seats. Both Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA support many more speakers than 7.1. We may have a new disc format in the future with 12.4 audio support.

BD,

Dave and I have designed the front 3 speakers to be as follows:

L & R main speakers are mirror imaged line stage towers about 6 1/2' tall, 30" wide at the base and about 26" wide for the towers themselves. Each tower will have a total of 32 drivers: 8 soft dome tweeters, 8 soft dome midrange drivers, and 16 woofers. The Center channel is to be a half tower (about 36" tall) with half the number of each of the drivers. It will sit below and not interfere with the drop down screen. Since these are line stage, the height of the center channel will have little affect on the fact that it is not 6 1/2' tall. Additionally, if I had another 6 1/2' tower I would need an acoustically transparent drop down screen that would pull the screen away from the front wall lessening the distance from the screen to the rear wall and would ultimately move my seating position.

The front main towers are also intended as the mains for the 2 channel high end system. By having a drop down screen that would be raised most of the time would not interfere with the 2 channel performance. The same would be the case by having the center channel speaker that is a half tower in height.

The L & R surrounds could be made of either towers or large "book shelf" speakers. These are intended to have a total of 12 drivers consisting of 3 of the same soft dome tweeter, 3 of the same soft dome midrange drivers, and 6 of the same woofers and the same crossover parts as the mains. The advantage of having these as towers is that it would be difficult to knock them off of the pedestals and they could be made so that the drivers are at the proper height.

I will be starting with the single Epik Conquest 18" sub and possibly add a 2nd in the future. Initially, my intent is to experiment and place it beside the left but behind (toward the rear wall) the side surround. The 2nd Epik Conquest would probably placed along side but to the front (toward the front wall) of the side surround.

As to the question of the number of seats, that is basically being determined by the placement of the first row of seats at 13.5' from the front wall and the long axis wall of the room is only 19' 4" and the width that is 14' 7".

Rich

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

BD,

Dave and I have designed the front 3 speakers to be as follows:

L & R main speakers are mirror imaged line stage towers about 6 1/2' tall, 30" wide at the base and about 26" wide for the towers themselves. Each tower will have a total of 32 drivers: 8 soft dome tweeters, 8 soft dome midrange drivers, and 16 woofers. The Center channel is to be a half tower (about 36" tall) with half the number of each of the drivers. It will sit below and not interfere with the drop down screen. Since these are line stage, the height of the center channel will have little affect on the fact that it is not 6 1/2' tall. Additionally, if I had another 6 1/2' tower I would need an acoustically transparent drop down screen that would pull the screen away from the front wall lessening the distance from the screen to the rear wall and would ultimately move my seating position.

The front main towers are also intended as the mains for the 2 channel high end system. By having a drop down screen that would be raised most of the time would not interfere with the 2 channel performance. The same would be the case by having the center channel speaker that is a half tower in height.

The L & R surrounds could be made of either towers or large "book shelf" speakers. These are intended to have a total of 12 drivers consisting of 3 of the same soft dome tweeter, 3 of the same soft dome midrange drivers, and 6 of the same woofers. The advantage of having these as towers is that it would be difficult to know them off of the pedestals and they could be made so that the drivers are at the proper height.

I will be starting with the single Epik Conquest 18" sub and possibly add a 2nd in the future. Initially, my intent is to experiment and place it beside the left but behind (toward the rear wall) the side surround. The 2nd Epik Conquest would probably placed along side but to the front (toward the front wall) of the side surround.

As to the question of the number of seats, that is basically being determined by the placement of the first row of seats at 13.5' from the front wall and the long axis wall of the room is only 19' 4" and the width that is 14' 7".

Rich

Your Epik subwoofer is a wonderful subwoofer. However, for a larger HT room, you will need two or four subwoofers.

Subwoofers are a real pain in the a$$. The low frequency sound waves generated by subwoofers interact with the room boundaries and create standing waves. Because of the standing waves, you will get cold and hot spots in the room.

With one sub and proper placement, you can get good bass sound for the primary listening position. However, if you move a few feet (or inches) to the right, left, back, or front, the bass will not be so great. No amount of equalization will help this.

The most practical solution is to place two or four subwoofers in the room. The easiest and the best option is to use identical subwoofers from the same manufacturer. They don't need to be so big. Studies have shown that two smaller subs from the same manufacturer perform better than a single larger sub from the same manufacturer in a small HT room.

Is it possible for you to trade the 18" Epik sub and replace it with two 15" Epik subs or four 12" Epik subs?

Also, the Velodyne SMS subwoofer equalizer/analyzer may be a good option for your new HT room. They are about $400-$500. You can easily smooth out the bass response in your room. I created a sticky thread in the Subwoofers section. Everytime I tweak one of my subs, I use it to flatten the frequency response.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Your Epik subwoofer is a wonderful subwoofer. However, for a larger HT room, you will need two or four subwoofers.

Subwoofers are a real pain in the a$$. The low frequency sound waves generated by subwoofers interact with the room boundaries and create standing waves. Because of the standing waves, you will get cold and hot spots in the room.

With one sub and proper placement, you can get good bass sound for the primary listening position. However, if you move a few feet (or inches) to the right, left, back, or front, the bass will not be so great. No amount of equalization will help this.

The most practical solution is to place two or four subwoofers in the room. The easiest and the best option is to use identical subwoofers from the same manufacturer. They don't need to be so big. Studies have shown that two smaller subs from the same manufacturer perform better than a single larger sub from the same manufacturer in a small HT room.

Is it possible for you to trade the 18" Epik sub and replace it with two 15" Epik subs or four 12" Epik subs?

Also, the Velodyne SMS subwoofer equalizer/analyzer may be a good option for your new HT room. They are about $400-$500. You can easily smooth out the bass response in your room. I created a sticky thread in the Subwoofers section. Everytime I tweak one of my subs, I use it to flatten the frequency response.

By the way, we know that the main and I would suspect the center channel will output to about 17 Hz (the prototypes have been measured on an oscilloscope). There is no way to trade the Epik Conquest that I am aware. As I have indicated, I may well get a 2nd Conquest, though I may get a 2nd smaller Epik Sub in the future. There is so much money tied up in the house, listening, room, audio equipment and racks, speakers, projector, screen, seating, and acoustic treatments, this is going to take awhile to get everything installed. It will be done in big "bites" at a time.

The main and center channel speakers, and a lot of cabling- ICs and speaker will be the first priority for the next 6 or 8 months (from now until several months in the house). Next will be the 4 additional speakers and additional speaker wiring. All of the speaker wiring will be all over the floor for awhile. Next order of business after all of the speakers, I expect to take care of the projector, screen, final speaker adjustment, and to drop the speaker wiring through the floor (room is on the 1st floor). After the installation of the screen, projector, and speaker wiring would come the seating. Additional subwoofers and acoustic treatments would come after that.

Rich

[TKNice]

Originally Posted by SammyG

I only have one row of seating with 7.1, but I really wish I had two. I don't need two rows of seating, but how awesome would it look. If you're not gonna have more than 3 people watching a movie, don't worry about the extra row. I'm gonna throw you a PM about a set of DQ-10's.

Well, two rows looks sweet but does introduce another challenge. How loud is loud enough for the surrounds to envelop the first row without annoying the second? I've been playing around with this and my speaker levels for a little while now. One row certainly gives you a nice "sweet spot".

[TKNice]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

By the way, we know that the main and I would suspect the center channel will output to about 17 Hz (the prototypes have been measured on an oscilloscope). There is no way to trade the Epik Conquest that I am aware. As I have indicated, I may well get a 2nd Conquest, though I may get a 2nd smaller Epik Sub in the future. There is so much money tied up in the house, listening, room, audio equipment and racks, speakers, projector, screen, seating, and acoustic treatments, this is going to take awhile to get everything installed. It will be done in big "bites" at a time.

The main and center channel speakers, and a lot of cabling- ICs and speaker will be the first priority for the next 6 or 8 months (from now until several months in the house). Next will be the 4 additional speakers and additional speaker wiring. All of the speaker wiring will be all over the floor for awhile. Next order of business after all of the speakers, I expect to take care of the projector, screen, final speaker adjustment, and to drop the speaker wiring through the floor (room is on the 1st floor). After the installation of the screen, projector, and speaker wiring would come the seating. Additional subwoofers and acoustic treatments would come after that.

Rich

I think you're on the right track Rich and I agree with what others have said here. Smaller surrounds or in-walls should be every bit as effective as larger speaker in movies. If you listen to music a lot then that could change things. If it were my choice, I'd try to fit more seats in there and play around with your speaker placement. I've also read many times that the height of rear and surround placement is not as important, so long as it's "high enough".

I went from 5.1 to 7.1 a few months ago in a room similar in size to your's (mine is a little narrower and longer), and noticed a nice improvement in how full the back of my theater sounds. I use the PLIIx Movie mode for almost everything which seems to do a great job matrixing the extra channels, at least in my setup.

Tom

[Disky76]

If it were me, I would opt for more seats. 7.1 is a nicety and not a necessity; I would rather have more seating options for friends on movie night. You could always upgrade to 7.1 later.