Save Constellation - The Video (NASA)

[groovyone]

YouTube - Save Constellation

So, for those that don't yet know, the Pres has sent forth a budget that will kill the Constellation Program. This will not only essentially end the US manned spaceflight program, but may also put thousands of JSC employees alone out of work, myself included. Normally I do not discuss my job on forums, but now seems like a good time.

Please don't turn this into a politial thread, just a spaceflight/NASA discussion, and please watch the video to see what myself and others have been working on these past few years.

[xtop]

sad times indeed

[mikejet]

The very nature of the subject is political so this might not be the best place to discuss this topic.

[groovyone]

Originally Posted by mikejet

The very nature of the subject is political so this might not be the best place to discuss this topic.

You can discuss the pros and cons of the new budget and it's impact on NASA without flaming or blame.

[mikejet]

All I know is we need to send Sam Rockwell to the Moon so he can mine some Helium 3 for us.

[DetroitSportsFan]

Originally Posted by groovyone

This will not only essentially end the US manned spaceflight program, but may also put thousands of JSC employees alone out of work, myself included.

Sorry to hear that.

[Uniquely]

I'm not sure how the loss of this project ends manned space flight. I've read that this particular project was almost a decade behind schedule and over budget by a factor of five. NASA's budget was actually increased by $6 billion dollars, and more leeway has been given for private enterprise, which will be much more likely to be on schedule and on budget. The loss of this particular project is sad for the people that were working on it, and I feel for them; but I don't see this loss as "the end to manned spaceflight."

[groovyone]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

I'm not sure how the loss of this project ends manned space flight. I've read that this particular project was almost a decade behind schedule and over budget by a factor of five. NASA's budget was actually increased by $6 billion dollars, and more leeway has been given for private enterprise, which will be much more likely to be on schedule and on budget. The loss of this particular project is sad for the people that were working on it, and I feel for them; but I don't see this loss as "the end to manned spaceflight."

For starters, the budget was not over predictions and never did get the additional funding Congress promised. It was also far from 10 years behind. Ares I-X had slipped less than a year, as had the rest of the program due to lack of funding. Once Shuttle ended that funding would have gone to support CxP. I disagree on the private enterprise part. The risk of privatising ALL of manned space flight is profitability. These companies have profit margins and stockholders etc to be concerned with. Once the project stops being profitable, they can just cut it.

My issue is not even really with that. If you get a chance to look at the actual budget proposal, take a look. ALL the proposal has is dollar amounts on vague titles. There is no description, no mission, no goals, really only two vaugely described technologies to reasearch. I think the concept of shifting some of it into pivate industry is not bad, and the refocussing of NASA could help, but the way it stands now with no detail or specific will not work.

As for the budget "increase", like I said it has no description. It really is a bunch of numbers on a spreadsheet with no backup. AND, while it is an increase over 2010, it is still less than what would have been allocated for 2011. "Increase" depends on what you are comparing it to.

The loss of the US manned spaceflight is still true. Shuttle ends in 2010, CxP may end with it. That is it. From that point on we pay other countries and HOPE some private industry comes forward. Even then, then outline is just for private industry to take people to ISS. We lose exploration, which is really, to most people here, the important part. Private industry can taxi goods and crew to the ISS, but we are left with nothing to take people beyond that.

It is interesting to look at some of the amazing programs that got cut after Apollo succeeded. It is true, a huge driver, if not THE huge driver, was national pride. Once we beat the russians, many deemed teh scientific possibilities unimportant compared to budget. Plans for a moon base were in work wven in teh early 70s, but it all got cut.

To give an idea of our budget too, NASA gets less than 1/2 a cent of every dollar spent. $0.005.

One more thought...While some of the Space X work is very cool and impressive, compare what it does to the now 30 year old Shuttle. I think it is an important task, but certainly not one that can replace the Shuttle yet. Unfortunately, teh shuttle is THIRTY years old. We are out of parts. Most all of teh original hardware manufacturers are long gone, and the shuttles are well past their planned life. There have been several attempts at replacement, but again, budgets get cut and they died. Here we are now with not one, but TWO manned programs about to shut down.

I can't say much else about thoughts on the budget allocation because it would be political.

One more thought, this one may be iffy, the attempt to create more jobs by privatizing spaceflight is actually at risk of costing more jobs than it creates. Most of these companies are very small R&D groups with no plans on expanding until much later down the road.

[groovyone]

One more quick comment. (please understand these discussions have been daily around here as we wait for some actual details to develop)

There are ways to cut CxP and keep Orion, even making it viable as one of the commercial tasks at a likely lower cost and potentially even more sucessful. Instead we got a blunt axe cut to the entire program with no details or anything. Basicallly they just removed the CxP line item.

Maybe as insult to injury the Lunar Rover that was part of the video drove in the inagural parade....

[groovyone]

see, pretty much politics free.

[supersix4]

I was just wondering you're Op on what Diamandis (X Prize Foundation) said

"The U.S. Government doesn't build your computers, nor do you fly aboard a U.S. Government owned and operated airline. Private industry routinely takes technologies pioneered by the government and turns them into cheap, reliable and robust industries."

Also do you not look forward to maybe providing DC's/ other private companies with you're experience?

I agree it might be bad losing all those jobs, but those people might transition quite well to privatized companies which could technically run things much more efficiently.

This is purely a preliminary assessment and might be severely wrong, but I just think NASA is better served spending time working on Deep Space exploration, and let Privatized companies come in and take over what Constellation is doing.

This could be a silly rosy outlook, but someones going to help companies do that work. Why not you or other qualified JSC people?

[groovyone]

Originally Posted by supersix4

I was just wondering you're Op on what Diamandis (X Prize Foundation) said



Also do you not look forward to maybe providing DC's/ other private companies with you're experience?

I agree it might be bad losing all those jobs, but those people might transition quite well to privatized companies which could technically run things much more efficiently.

This is purely a preliminary assessment and might be severely wrong, but I just think NASA is better served spending time working on Deep Space exploration, and let Privatized companies come in and take over what Constellation is doing.

This could be a silly rosy outlook, but someones going to help companies do that work. Why not you or other qualified JSC people?

I agree with them, but there is nothing to transition right now. Back around 86 NASA was talking with many aircraft manufacturers about privatizing shuttle. In that case they would have been taking over a product, not just a concept. If this proposal was layed out with a whole lot more detail, or any for that matter, we could see where that transition may be made. The main issue is we are looking at two different spaceflight concepts. Shuttle is LEO (Low Earth Orbit) and that is the type that we may be able to start working in commercial entities similar to the way we work with international partners with ISS.

The other part of spaceflight is exploration, which is where Constellation comes in. CxP has been getting some grief because it is constally portrayed as just a return to the moon. Been there, done that. That was only the first step of a much larger plan for much more advanced exploration, like a lunar base and leading to Mars. This part of manned spaceflight would be lost indefinitely, just like it was in the 70s. The Deep Space Exploration with probes and robotics is part of it, but removing the man from it would be a big loss.

It is the loss of defined exploration that I have the issue with. (Other than the huge lack of detail in the plan.)

I would like to see us work toward privatizing LEO operations, but with a plan, not a spreadsheet, and not at the cost of manned exploration.

[JBL4645]

Okay he gets my, vote on this to extend Space Shuttle launches as that is sight of power to see.

Yeah low Earth obit seems like a bit of a waste off time. What doesn’t NASA have the bottle to go beyond? There is only fear and I think its fear that is stopping them from going further. We haven’t travelled no further then a few hundred miles above the Earth for the past 38 years what a joke.

The only things that have gone further than (mans own nerve) are the space exploration probes travelling into deep interstellar space as our “planetary ambassador” to seek out new worlds and the possibilities of other life forms.

But they know travailing out further will not ensure any rescue if something goes wrong its almost certain utter plan one and all curtains for the crew. Apollo 13 was damn lucky to have made it back.

Go to Mars is not easy and the risks stakes are even higher for man or crew to travel a long distance, its not Star Trek and its certainly not Star Wars its called reality but until that day comes around, will just have to wait and see.

NASA always states “it’s not easy getting into space” and those short 8 ½ minutes maybe taken for granted when we watch it live at the Cape or on NASA TV live launch.

Its daring and we all brace when we hear “go with throttle-up” we wonder if they’ll be repeat but that was just due to poor leadership management that killed the crew not the ice. The ice was an issue but it was the management’s poor decision to let that shuttle fly on that fateful day January 28th 1986.

A new shuttle can be replaced. You can’t replace the crew their soul their mind you can’t replace that.

[Uniquely]

Buzz Aldrin certainly supports manned space exploration, and he seems to think this new plan will further that goal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/buzz-a..._b_448667.html

[JBL4645]

I find it incredible for myself saying this being a believer for many decades now. I just think it was staged. I mean with all the know how of doing it many times before committing themselves to land on the moon.

You remember what Kennedy said about (achieving the goal of putting a man on the moon before the decade is out) well with all the years that have gone by now you’d think they could do this in 5 years with the leaps and technical advances in technology and science. Not waiting some 40 years to do it again? Something smells rotten here?

So that’s just a bit of food for thought.

By the time they do it most of the Apollo astronauts and the back-up crews would have departed this Earth.

I just find the whole thing strange now. I mean hands up! Who has the bottle to travel 250.000 miles while being surrounded by vacuum. One foul up and your toast! Its worse than travelling down to see the Titanic under tones of water pressure pressing around the submersible, or maybe the same risk! It’s slow decent and slow ascend back to the surface.

It’s a 4 day trip to the moon and back and like I said one foul up and it’s possible you may not make it back. Why do we, take such risks? Are we totally mad?

And finally no I’m not crazy Apollo conspiracy theorist, but something is tapping me on the shoulder telling to wake up and smell the hot chocolate. I say that because I don’t like coffee. LOL

[supersix4]

Originally Posted by groovyone

CxP has been getting some grief because it is constally portrayed as just a return to the moon. Been there, done that.

I thought thats what the Augustine commission found was that even given its current budget it couldn't do it by the planed 2020 so I agree we shouldn't throw money away if its not going to produce. Maybe you can give us a more in-depth understanding of that repot.

I agree with all that, not that I'm super current on the issue, but I think it would be a loss to stop using manned flights/ exploration.

I also think you would see plenty of people sign up to risk it and go out further if they were trained right/ given the best possible chance to do it and do it right.

For example not take fatty from his man cave with his star trek toys and give him a shot, but train someone who if communications break everyone would know how to fix it multiple ways, if someone had a heart attack everyone would know how to stabilize and treat it (maybe thats a pipe dream, but I'd show no outrage if people were trained well and wanted to give it a shot.)

[JBL4645]

One thing I find disheartening is “Laika” first Russian dog in space. It’s a sad story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laika

Like “sending a monkey up to do a man’s job” because man is too scared of the unknown and would worry more, less than animals wellbeing! This type thing really pisses me off.

[supersix4]

Originally Posted by JBL4645

One thing I find disheartening is “Laika” first Russian dog in space. It’s a sad story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laika

Like “sending a monkey up to do a man’s job” because man is too scared of the unknown and would worry more, less than animals wellbeing! This type thing really pisses me off.

I have more a problem with that then people who volunteer to do it.

[OrlandoEastwood]

Originally Posted by mikejet

All I know is we need to send Sam Rockwell to the Moon so he can mine some Helium 3 for us.

I loved Moon. Great movie.

[JBL4645]

Originally Posted by supersix4

I have more a problem with that then people who volunteer to do it.

I’m sure you do. I do hope that kind of nonsense has been put behind if it would come out that NASA is planning to do that caper again I think a lot of animal activists will be lining-up outside NASA.

We are so arrogant thinking we can conquer space for our own selfish. I mean look at what we have done to this planet its not “ours” it also belongs to some of species that we have selfishly wiped out to the point of extinction.

We are not ready we are still far to primitive and savage it’s in our genes DNA we need just a bit more time before we are civilized to truly understand and respect life on this planet, because we’ll just end up repeating ourselves and destroying a new world, mark my words.