What can i get with optical? so confussed.

[DannyTalent]

what do i receive through Optical?? If i am watching die hard 4, it has DTS HD Master Audio, what do i get through it?

[jomari]

you are getting the DTS Core track. an optical track cannot carry the full bandwidth signal of the DTS HDMA track, but can use the higher coded DTS audio track compared to a DVD.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by DannyTalent

what do i receive through Optical?? If i am watching die hard 4, it has DTS HD Master Audio, what do i get through it?

You get a lossy DTS output, the same DTS used on DVDs. But, it will likely be encoded at twice the bitrate used on DVD, meaning it is less compressed, and it will sound better as a result.

The same sort of substitution happens with Dolby TrueHD, where you get a lossy DD 5.1 track over optical.

With a PCM track, there's no loss of quality over optical. However, the output will be downmixed from 5.1 to stereo.

[CasualKiller]

Originally Posted by jomari

you are getting the DTS Core track. an optical track cannot carry the full bandwidth signal of the DTS HDMA track, but can use the higher coded DTS audio track compared to a DVD.

Not true, optical has a bit rate of 125 mbps, HD codecs stream in the 2-8 mbps range . They don't use optical for HD audio because you cannot implement HDCP on optical.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by CasualKiller

Not true, optical has a bit rate of 125 mbps, HD codecs stream in the 2-8 mbps range . They don't use optical for HD audio because you cannot implement HDCP on optical.

Your bandwidth statement is correct about SACD and DVD-A. However, it is not correct about Lossless Audio Codecs such as LPCM, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS MA.

According to Toshiba, the inventor of Toslink (Toshiba Link), the maximum bandwith of an enhanced Toslink cable is around 6Mbs. LPCM, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS HD MA require more than that. HDMI's bandwidth is around 37Mbs. In addition, Toslink has a length limitation.

The bandwidth of 125Mbps that you are referring to does not apply to Digital Home Audio. That kind of speed is for Ethernet and other applications. Single mode glass fiber, used for networking, can support bandwidth far greater than any electrical transmission standard.

For Digital Audio, the best we can hope for is 6Mbps. The newer Toslink modules can go a little higher (up to 8 or 10Mbps), but the majority of Home Audio equipment, particularly the older ones have the older TOTX176 and TORX176 Toslink transmitter and receiver Modules and are limited in their speed performance.

This is from High Def Digest:

Toslink or Coaxial SPDIF - SPDIF does not have enough bandwidth to carry a full 5.1 PCM signal, so the audio track will be downgraded to 2 channels only. This is generally an undesirable result.

[CasualKiller]

Originally the bandwidth was only 3.1 mbps and they expanded it to be compatible with the newer digital audio codecs at the time like Dolby Digital Plus etc. If they wanted to expand it again to allow HD codecs they could but they have no way to implement copyright protection on it.

[BozQ]

Well, to answer OP's question in full.

Optical/TOSLINK is capable of bitstreaming the followng common audio formats on BD.

Dolby Digital (and some Dolby Digital EX)
DTS
LPCM 2.0

Basically all the formats that were used for DVDs

[Pondosinatra]

Ok, so no latest audio over Optical or I'm guessing Digital Coax....

However, if I still want to experience HD Audio goodness without using HDMI I can still get it by using composite cables to each speaker (RCA jacks) correct?

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by Pondosinatra

Ok, so no latest audio over Optical or I'm guessing Digital Coax....

The same applies to Coaxial connection too. Yes.

However, if I still want to experience HD Audio goodness without using HDMI I can still get it by using composite cables to each speaker (RCA jacks) correct?

Aye, I need confirmation from someone else on this one.
Are you referring to BD players' internal decoders?
I believe this very much depends on the DAC used in the players itself.

I've tried listening Pirates of the Caribbean on my PS3. And the difference between PCM 5.1 (24-bit/48kHz) and Dolby Digital 640kbps were zero using composite output. But it is *much* improved when I bitstream out using Optical TOSLINK.

My point is, even though I may be playing PCM 5.1 on my PS3, the poor DAC on the console meant that the output quality has offered little to no significant improvement over the Dolby Digital option.

Of course, this is my personal experience with my PS3. I can't comment on the other standalone BD players.

Also, anybody may feel free to correct me if this post is errorneous.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Pondosinatra

Ok, so no latest audio over Optical or I'm guessing Digital Coax....

However, if I still want to experience HD Audio goodness without using HDMI I can still get it by using composite cables to each speaker (RCA jacks) correct?

You have only two options to get multi-channel HD audio:

1. HDMI
2. Multi-channel analog: This means that you need multi-channel analog (RCA) outputs on your BD player for all the channels. Also, you need a receiver or preamp/processor with multi-channel analog inputs. Not all BD players and/or receivers have these options. As far as speakers are concerned, you connect them to the receiver like you normally do.

Optical and coaxial digital cables will not give you multi-channel HD audio. However, they can give you better quality Dolby Digital and DTS on Blu-ray movies than DVD's. In most cases, you will be very happy with them.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by BozQ

My point is, even though I may be playing PCM 5.1 on my PS3, the poor DAC on the console meant that the output quality has offered little to no significant improvement over the Dolby Digital option.

Not sure I follow this. The analog outputs on a PS3 are stereo, not multichannel. If you play a 5.1 PCM track, the PS3 will send it over HDMI as six discrete channels and the receiver's DACs will do the analog conversion. If you listen to the PS3's analog output, you'll be hearing a stereo downmix. So, the quality of the DACs in the PS3 doesn't much matter. The loss of four channels is a much bigger deal.

The same goes for decoding a DD 5.1 track in the PS3 and converting it to analog. You'll get a stereo downmix. But, the downmixes from PCM and DD 5.1 are not likely to be the same. So, that's another uncontrolled variable introduced into the comparison.

You really need to use a standalone player that has lossless decoders and multichannel analog outputs.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Not sure I follow this. The analog outputs on a PS3 are stereo, not multichannel. If you play a 5.1 PCM track, the PS3 will send it over HDMI as six discrete channels and the receiver's DACs will do the analog conversion. If you listen to the PS3's analog output, you'll be hearing a stereo downmix. So, the quality of the DACs in the PS3 doesn't much matter. The loss of four channels is a much bigger deal.

The same goes for decoding a DD 5.1 track in the PS3 and converting it to analog. You'll get a stereo downmix. But, the downmixes from PCM and DD 5.1 are not likely to be the same. So, that's another uncontrolled variable introduced into the comparison.

You really need to use a standalone player that has lossless decoders and multichannel analog outputs.

I'm just telling him, technically analog outs from BD players are in HD. But if you have lousy DACs like the PS3, then the advantages of the lossless HD audio formats are not noticeable. Yes, I know about the downmix issue. I have compared composite analog out and TOSLINK PCM 2.0 to a Sound Blaster Extigy and the differences are huge!

So again, technically, it is in HD, but I cannot guarantee there will be a significant improvement in the audio experience as the DACs differ from one player to another, and I can't keep track which are the better ones.

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by BozQ

I'm just telling him, technically analog outs from BD players are in HD. But if you have lousy DACs like the PS3, then the advantages of the lossless HD audio formats are not noticeable. Yes, I know about the downmix issue. I have compared composite analog out and TOSLINK PCM 2.0 to a Sound Blaster Extigy and the differences are huge!

So again, technically, it is in HD, but I cannot guarantee there will be a significant improvement in the audio experience as the DACs differ from one player to another, and I can't keep track which are the better ones.

Then by your count CDs (LPCM 2.0) are "HD audio" too. To most people here, "HD audio" means *multichannel* (5.1 or higher) audio which was originally either uncompressed (LPCM) or lossless (TrueHD, DTS-HD MA).

I believe Pondosinatra was asking about multichannel analog outputs--i.e., six to eight discrete RCA connectors; his stand-alone BD player (described here) has those, and it *is* considered "HD audio". Of course, the quality of his DACs is a possible issue, but since his player can do up to 7.1 analog (the PS3 only has stereo analog), his DACs are probably better than ours. (Edit: I also have a PS3, but I use HDMI audio.)

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by CasualKiller

Not true, optical has a bit rate of 125 mbps, HD codecs stream in the 2-8 mbps range . They don't use optical for HD audio because you cannot implement HDCP on optical.

Big Daddy is right. optical tos link cannot carry DTS HD-MA, True HD - not enough bandwidth.

There are HDMI optical extensions which would carry HDCP. HDCP is a digital protocol and it can be transported over optical.

The generic optical technology is not limited 125 Mbit/s. There are optical transmission systems in production running at 10,000 Mbit/s.

[grolschie]

Sorry to reply to such an old thread...

If the Blu-Ray player cannot internally decode DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA, can it still bitstream the DTS core from these formats over optical/coax? Or can it only bitstream them in full over HDMI to be decoded by the receiver?

The player I was looking at is the Philips BDP3000:
https://www.blu-ray.com/products/?p=185&show=specs

It supports: Dolby True HD, DTS 2.0 + Digital out, DTS, Dolby Digital. I have no HDMI receiver as yet, but don't want to shell out for a player with analog audio outputs.

Also how likely it is that a disc will have Linear PCM and no primary DD/DTS track i.e. no 5.1 of any kind over optical/coax?

Thanks for your patience.
grol

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by grolschie

Sorry to reply to such an old thread...

If the Blu-Ray player cannot internally decode DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA, can it still bitstream the DTS core from these formats over optical/coax? Or can it only bitstream them in full over HDMI to be decoded by the receiver?

The player I was looking at is the Philips BDP3000:
https://www.blu-ray.com/products/?p=185&show=specs

It supports: Dolby True HD, DTS 2.0 + Digital out, DTS, Dolby Digital. I have no HDMI receiver as yet, but don't want to shell out for a player with analog audio outputs.

Also how likely it is that a disc will have Linear PCM and no primary DD/DTS track i.e. no 5.1 of any kind over optical/coax?

Thanks for your patience.
grol

I THINK that every BD disc has a core DTS and/or Dolby Digital 5.1 track.

I currently have the Sony s550 that has multichannel analog out, that I run into my old-school, non-HDMI receiver to get DD-HD and DTS-HD. Sounds great, no complaints.

But now I am thinking about getting the Sony s570, which has no multichannel analog out. So I'll be using optical or digital coax to my old-school receiver, and I won't get the HD sound.

I'm hoping, based on the comments in this thread, that the sound will still be good (just not HD good).

[grolschie]

Thanks for that.