Help me spend my money (part II).....

[blu_man_916]

I had a lot of success with this title in the (subwoofer) section, so I thought I would give it a try in the (receiver) section.

Current Setup: Onkyo SR502 (YIKES - Major upgrade needed) Kef IQ5's, IQ6C, Outlaw Audio Sub. Music: 80% - Movies: 20%

Based on several websites I have been able to find the Onkyo HT-RC 180 new - under $500 shipped.

Is this the best bang for the buck?

Other options considered: In order

1. Onkyo SR805 - (Used $500) - Audiogon/Ebay

2. Marantz 5003 (Refurbished - $500) - Accessories4less

3. DENON AVR-890/2310CI (Refurbished $450) - Ebay

4. Onkyo SR608 (New $500) - Newegg/Fry's

Others? I don't think I can afford an Elite, otherwise it would have been on the list.

Hopefully, there will be some specials this weekend with the holiday. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Dustin

[lojack1976]

I've purchased refurbished before, but I prefer new when possible. Take a look at THIS Onkyo HT-RC180 for $549.77 shipped. You can get another $20 off using the coupon code HONOR. This is a very good price on this receiver. Another good option is the Pioneer VSX-1020-K which I have and I'm loving. Newegg has it HERE for $469.99 shipped right now. Just thought I'd throw a couple of new options on your list. That Denon you're looking at is HERE brand new for $495.72 also.

[callas01]

Of the ones listed, Marantz is the best, Esp. for music. Very musical and everyone says that they perform excellently in 2-channel. Movies will be awesome too. Not just that but it would match with your Kef speakers really, really well. I have heard the Kef iQs and XQs and I can attest that they sound great with Marantz. I have heard them with Denon and Pioneer too, and I thought they matched best with the Marantz. I hear that Harman is a good pairing too.

To me the Onkyos would be too harsh for the delicate sound of the Kef, I know you have one now, but to me the lower end onkyos lack detail. Also the Marantz has pre-outs for external amplification later if you choose

Denons are nice, but when directly compared to the Marantz, even tho they are owned by the same company, the Marantz IMO is just a superior overall receiver.

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by callas01

Of the ones listed, Marantz is the best, Esp. for music. Very musical and everyone says that they perform excellently in 2-channel. Movies will be awesome too. Not just that but it would match with your Kef speakers really, really well. I have heard the Kef iQs and XQs and I can attest that they sound great with Marantz. I have heard them with Denon and Pioneer too, and I thought they matched best with the Marantz. I hear that Harman is a good pairing too.

To me the Onkyos would be too harsh for the delicate sound of the Kef, I know you have one now, but to me the lower end onkyos lack detail. Also the Marantz has pre-outs for external amplification later if you choose

Denons are nice, but when directly compared to the Marantz, even tho they are owned by the same company, the Marantz IMO is just a superior overall receiver.

Keep in mind Callas that the Onkyo I pointed to is not a lower end one. Its an upper mid-range receiver that originally retailed for nearly $1000. The 805 did as well. The RC180 at that price is a steal and its more comparable to the Marantz 6003 instead of the 5003. And Callas you are also in the very small minority of people who don't like Onkyo's sound. IMO both the 805 and the RC180 outclass all of the other suggestions so far including the Pioneer I own and recommended. And as a former Harman owner and current Onkyo and Pioneer owner I can attest to Harman's great overall sound, but detail is superior with my Onkyo 605. My Pioneer is more detailed than both.

[blu_man_916]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

Keep in mind Callas that the Onkyo I pointed to is not a lower end one. Its an upper mid-range receiver that originally retailed for nearly $1000. The 805 did as well. The RC180 at that price is a steal and its more comparable to the Marantz 6003 instead of the 5003. And Callas you are also in the very small minority of people who don't like Onkyo's sound. IMO both the 805 and the RC180 outclass all of the other suggestions so far including the Pioneer I own and recommended. And as a former Harman owner and current Onkyo and Pioneer owner I can attest to Harman's great overall sound, but detail is superior with my Onkyo 605. My Pioneer is more detailed than both.

Here is the situation I'm in. My dad let me borrow his 805 when I first got my IQ5's and I really liked it, but I'm thinking the 180 might be better. Its essentially a 807, which is an awesome receiver. Sure, it is slightly different and a little less power, but lets remember I'm going to be upgrading from a 502, so its going to be drastically better. I have read that the 807/180 is far better than the 806, which was a let down from the 805. Hmmmm What do you think? 180 > 805 ? 180 < 805 ?

I picked Marantz because of the reputation, especially the 5003 (6003 is slightly over budget, but IMO the best looking receiver, ever).

I'm not familiar with Denon, but I tossed it out there because I read some pretty good reviews.

I will check out that Pioneer.

Thanks for the posts, guys!

Dustin

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by blu_man_916

Here is the situation I'm in. My dad let me borrow his 805 when I first got my IQ5's and I really liked it, but I'm thinking the 180 might be better. Its essentially a 807, which is an awesome receiver. Sure, it is slightly different and a little less power, but lets remember I'm going to be upgrading from a 502, so its going to be drastically better. I have read that the 807/180 is far better than the 806, which was a let down from the 805. Hmmmm What do you think? 180 > 805 ? 180 < 805 ?

I picked Marantz because of the reputation, especially the 5003 (6003 is slightly over budget, but IMO the best looking receiver, ever).

I'm not familiar with Denon, but I tossed it out there because I read some pretty good reviews.

I will check out that Pioneer.

Thanks for the posts, guys!

Dustin

The 807/RC180 is better sounding than the previous models, but the 805 will output more power. The 806 was considered a letdown to some because it didn't have the Burr Brown DACs like the 805 and it was a little less powerful. It was still a very good receiver and it typically sold for much less than the 805 did so it was still a great buy.

The 807/RC180 brought back the Burr Browns and a better sound. It did however take a considerable drop in power with all channels driven, but hometheatermag.com still gave it very high marks. Real world performance is excellent and overall its a very highly rated receiver.

Look at hometheatermag's review HERE and you'll see that it gets a near perfect score. Personally I'd take the 807 or RC180 over an 805 since it is loaded with many more features, and Onkyo has also improved sound quality with their newer receivers.

My other take on things is that Marantz is not to be trusted as they once were. All you have to do is look at the problems they've had with the 5004 and 6004 receivers. They've had a very high failure rate and what's worse is that Marantz denied that there was a problem for months. They've treated their customers like s#!t and denied warranty service.

There are many forums around the net discussing this issue, and IMO buyers should look elsewhere. The 5003 and 6003 have proven track records, but the fact is that Marantz as a company hasn't honored warranties when problems have come up with their newer line, so I wouldn't trust them if there happens to be an issue with the 5003 should you get it. JMO.

Also, the Pioneer 1020 is very nice and I'm very happy with it. Its not the most powerful of the bunch, but its very detailed and the sound is just flat out amazing. For the price its a great bargain. I paid $100 more for it myself. I just couldn't hold off for the 1120 like I wanted to, but I'm still happy. The Onkyo 608 is also a good bargain. These are good options if HDMI 1.4 and 3D support is desired, but if you don't need or want these features then the RC180 is a much better way to go. Its got more power and features...its just a much higher end receiver overall.

As for Denon its pretty much a model by model thing from everything I've read. Some models are excellent and some are mediocre in regards to sound quality. I've seen a lot of reviews give them lackluster scores for sound quality. It seems that their great reputation is a reflection of their higher end models. Their entry and mid-range models typically offer average quality sound according to nearly every pro review I've read. A large number of user reviews appears to back this up as well. A friend of mine had nothing but problems with his from day one and he never got too excited with the sound either.

[callas01]

I may be in the minority, but I know what I like and don't like, I also have a good amount of experiene with Kef speakers, I have not owned them, but have been to a dealer with them several times.

Would you say the Onkyo 805 130 wpc is better then the NAD 747 60 wpc x 7?

I know the 805/180 is a good receiver, But WPC don't mean anything when you compare how good the amp is overall and its abilities. I don't know how much personal experience you have with Marantz receivers, but I have heard several receivers with "more power" that just cannot do what a Marantz receiver can do. Onkyo has been one of them, Denon, Sony, Pioneer are all others. For HT, Onkyo, Sony, Denon, Pioneer may be a equal or better then the Marantz

Since the OP wants to play a lot of music, I personally cannot think of a better receiver for Music then the Marantz. Marantz is known for making musical equipment, not just receivers, but all of their products. Since he is saying that he wants 80% music, IMO this is the best receiver for Music.


Another thing, think about this, your probably looking at the 90x7 and thinking its 90x2 also..... Read this

HT Labs Measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 103.8 watts
1% distortion at 118.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 88.2 watts
1% distortion at 99.9 watts

from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 153.1 watts and 1 percent distortion at 171.3 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 204.7 watts and 1 percent distortion at 239.6 watts.

This measures up to anything the Onkyos are.

[blu_man_916]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

The 807/RC180 is better sounding than the previous models, but the 805 will output more power. The 806 was considered a letdown to some because it didn't have the Burr Brown DACs like the 805 and it was a little less powerful. It was still a very good receiver and it typically sold for much less than the 805 did so it was still a great buy.

The 807/RC180 brought back the Burr Browns and a better sound. It did however take a considerable drop in power with all channels driven, but hometheatermag.com still gave it very high marks. Real world performance is excellent and overall its a very highly rated receiver.

Look at hometheatermag's review HERE and you'll see that it gets a near perfect score. Personally I'd take the 807 or RC180 over an 805 since it is loaded with many more features, and Onkyo has also improved sound quality with their newer receivers.

My other take on things is that Marantz is not to be trusted as they once were. All you have to do is look at the problems they've had with the 5004 and 6004 receivers. They've had a very high failure rate and what's worse is that Marantz denied that there was a problem for months. They've treated their customers like s#!t and denied warranty service.

There are many forums around the net discussing this issue, and IMO buyers should look elsewhere. The 5003 and 6003 have proven track records, but the fact is that Marantz as a company hasn't honored warranties when problems have come up with their newer line, so I wouldn't trust them if there happens to be an issue with the 5003 should you get it. JMO.

Also, the Pioneer 1020 is very nice and I'm very happy with it. Its not the most powerful of the bunch, but its very detailed and the sound is just flat out amazing. For the price its a great bargain. I paid $100 more for it myself. I just couldn't hold off for the 1120 like I wanted to, but I'm still happy. The Onkyo 608 is also a good bargain. These are good options if HDMI 1.4 and 3D support is desired, but if you don't need or want these features then the RC180 is a much better way to go.

Awesome, I really appreciate your help. You really helped me out with the subwoofer and now this. Thanks man. I will read that review and do some more research. I'm looking to purchase by this weekend.

I can't imagine the difference. 180 vs. 502.

[callas01]

Here is your 807 bench test scores

HT Labs Measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 105.5 watts
1% distortion at 122.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 29.9 watts
1% distortion at 33.0 watts

WHAT...... Thats Meager! My $500 Sony does better then that..... Im just saying.

from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 143.6 watts and 1 percent distortion at 168.7 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 240.2 watts and 1 percent distortion at 267.9 watts.

Isn't that about the same, a slight edge to the marantz amp? But I will call it even, Fair Enough?

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by callas01

I may be in the minority, but I know what I like and don't like, I also have a good amount of experiene with Kef speakers, I have not owned them, but have been to a dealer with them several times.

Would you say the Onkyo 805 130 wpc is better then the NAD 747 60 wpc x 7?

I know the 805/180 is a good receiver, But WPC don't mean anything when you compare how good the amp is overall and its abilities. I don't know how much personal experience you have with Marantz receivers, but I have heard several receivers with "more power" that just cannot do what a Marantz receiver can do. Onkyo has been one of them, Denon, Sony, Pioneer are all others. For HT, Onkyo, Sony, Denon, Pioneer may be a equal or better then the Marantz

Since the OP wants to play a lot of music, I personally cannot think of a better receiver for Music then the Marantz. Marantz is known for making musical equipment, not just receivers, but all of their products. Since he is saying that he wants 80% music, IMO this is the best receiver for Music.


Another thing, think about this, your probably looking at the 90x7 and thinking its 90x2 also..... Read this




This measures up to anything the Onkyos are.

Callas...I didn't even mention any power comparisons between the Onkyo and Marantz receivers at all. Your statement was about lower end Onkyos not being detailed, and my reply was that the 805 and RC180 are not their low end offerings. These are more expensive receivers that compete with the Marantz receivers. They are also very well reviewed receivers. Every pro review out there praises the sound of these receivers, and that is my point.

You happen to be one of the small number of people who don't like Onkyo's sound. I'm not saying that you're wrong because you are entitled to your opinion and of course you're going to like what you like just as I like what I like. However, you're opinion that the Marantz sounds better is still just that...an opinion...one based on the fact that you don't like Onkyo in the first place. The OP has an Onkyo and has demoed the 805 himself and he has already stated that he likes Onkyo. Hometheatermag gave the 807 five stars for performance, features, and value by the way. Ergonomics got a four and a half.

[callas01]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

Callas...I didn't even mention any power comparisons between the Onkyo and Marantz receivers at all. Your statement was about lower end Onkyos not being detailed, and my reply was that the 805 and RC180 are not their low end offerings. These are more expensive receivers that compete with the Marantz receivers. They are also very well reviewed receivers. Every pro review out there praises the sound of these receivers, and that is my point.

You happen to be one of the small number of people who don't like Onkyo's sound. I'm not saying that you're wrong because you are entitled to your opinion and of course you're going to like what you like just as I like what I like. However, you're opinion that the Marantz sounds better is still just that...an opinion...one based on the fact that you don't like Onkyo in the first place. The OP has an Onkyo and has demoed the 805 himself and he has already stated that he likes Onkyo. Hometheatermag gave the 807 five stars for performance, features, and value by the way. Ergonomics got a four and a half.

I agree, that its my opinion vs another persons opinion. And the lower end onkyos do lack detail compared to other equally priced lower end receivers. Like many people I was set to buy Onkyo based on what everyone said about them, but once I heard them, I was glad I stopped to listen before buying one... it just wasn't for me.

In terms of the upper levels I have heard up to the 3007, and YES, there is a jump from the 80X to the 100X in terms of the sound quality, but I don't personally find the 80X and below spectacular.

I know the Integras are nice, I want to hear one, I heard they don't sound like Onkyos, Id be interested in them one day perhaps. Esp an audition.

Also, the Kef speakers are great and when matched to a receiver like NAD or Marantz or Cambridge and Sherwood Newcastle would be great pairings with the Kefs.

[blu_man_916]

Originally Posted by callas01

I agree, that its my opinion vs another persons opinion. And the lower end onkyos do lack detail compared to other equally priced lower end receivers. Like many people I was set to buy Onkyo based on what everyone said about them, but once I heard them, I was glad I stopped to listen before buying one... it just wasn't for me.

In terms of the upper levels I have heard up to the 3007, and YES, there is a jump from the 80X to the 100X in terms of the sound quality, but I don't personally find the 80X and below spectacular.

I know the Integras are nice, I want to hear one, I heard they don't sound like Onkyos, Id be interested in them one day perhaps. Esp an audition.

Also, the Kef speakers are great and when matched to a receiver like NAD or Marantz or Cambridge and Sherwood Newcastle would be great pairings with the Kefs.

I'll have to look into some of the other brands you listed. Thanks man.

[blu_man_916]

Originally Posted by callas01

Also, the Kef speakers are great and when matched to a receiver like NAD or Marantz or Cambridge and Sherwood Newcastle would be great pairings with the Kefs.

Any model numbers stand out to you on the ones you listed above in the $500-$600 range?

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by callas01

I agree, that its my opinion vs another persons opinion. And the lower end onkyos do lack detail compared to other equally priced lower end receivers. Like many people I was set to buy Onkyo based on what everyone said about them, but once I heard them, I was glad I stopped to listen before buying one... it just wasn't for me.

In terms of the upper levels I have heard up to the 3007, and YES, there is a jump from the 80X to the 100X in terms of the sound quality, but I don't personally find the 80X and below spectacular.

I know the Integras are nice, I want to hear one, I heard they don't sound like Onkyos, Id be interested in them one day perhaps. Esp an audition.

Also, the Kef speakers are great and when matched to a receiver like NAD or Marantz or Cambridge and Sherwood Newcastle would be great pairings with the Kefs.

Like I said, you like what you like. There's no argument there. Since you did mention the power output I'd like to also note that there's virtually no scenario when a receiver outputs all channels at full power simultaneously. High output on all channels driven looks nice on paper, but in real world use you'll never see this occur.

The front channels is where the majority of the action is, and the five channel and less power output of the 807 is outstanding. This leads one to believe that the safety circuitry kicked in during the testing when all channels were driven simultaneously. This receiver is still a 40lb. beast with a 7.8 Amp power draw.

Hometheatermag has the review of the Marantz 6004 up and with five channels driven it does 86watts while the Onkyo 807 does 122watts with five channels driven. The 6004 does 126watts/2channels while the 807 does 168watts/2channels. 4ohm performance...the 6004 does 187watts/2channels and the 807 does 267watts/2channels. What sound is preferred is all up to the individual, but from a power point of view the 807 definitely has more legs to run in real world scenarios. It also scored higher than the 6004 on hometheatermag in every category except ergonomics where it tied.

Now of course the big fuss last year was when the Pioneer 1019's power dropped like a brick in five channel performance. That demonstrated that it was indeed crippled severely when compared to the 1018. It was however still a highly rated receiver for its price point mainly because it still sounds good, and for a small or medium sized room it has enough juice to do the job.

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by blu_man_916

Any model numbers stand out to you on the ones you listed above in the $500-$600 range?

These brands are not cheap. These companies entry level offerings are priced at the upper mid-range of the previously mentioned brands. Integra for example is a Onkyo's high end flagship brand. You have to go to an authorized dealer to buy this line. Your only option outside of that is to buy used.

I've seen NAD sold online, but they're pricey as well. The don't offer many features, but instead choose to give you a very high build quality and great sound. The entry level T 737 receiver is still going for about $600 on Amazon right now...much cheaper than it used to be, but you would really want to step up to next level which is the T 747, but that runs $1300. The 737 is just way too lacking IMO. Cambridge and Sherwood Newcastle...yeah pricey as well.

[blu_man_916]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

These brands are not cheap. These companies entry level offerings are priced at the upper mid-range of the previously mentioned brands. Integra for example is a Onkyo's high end flagship brand. You have to go to an authorized dealer to buy this line. Your only option outside of that is to buy used.

I've seen NAD sold online, but they're pricey as well. The don't offer many features, but instead choose to give you a very high build quality and great sound. The entry level T 737 receiver is still going for about $600 on Amazon right now...much cheaper than it used to be, but you would really want to step up to next level which is the T 747, but that runs $1300. The 737 is just way too lacking IMO. Cambridge and Sherwood Newcastle...yeah pricey as well.

Well, it seems like its going to be hard to beat the performance of the RC180, especially for the price.

I'm going to sleep on it, but I think I'm going to place my order tomorrow after work. It will ship out of Southern California, so I would have it by mid week with the holiday.

That is unless there are some major sales for Memorial Day weekend. All in good time.

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by blu_man_916

Well, it seems like its going to be hard to beat the performance of the RC180, especially for the price.

I'm going to sleep on it, but I think I'm going to place my order tomorrow after work. It will ship out of Southern California, so I would have it by mid week with the holiday.

That is unless there are some major sales for Memorial Day weekend. All in good time.

Yeah, definitely continue to look around for deals. I do still believe the RC180 is the best you will find at this price point, but you never know. Sometimes crazy deals pop up for a day or so and if you're lucky you may come across an even better deal.

[callas01]

As Lojack said the NAD, Cambridge and Sherwood NC, Integra are not cheap, however what you get is better then many other receivers higher offerings.

For instance $1200 you would spend on these would be better IMO then the 1200-2000 you would spend on the big name common receiver brands. Ironically these companies don't boast huge power numbers, but the amps and power supplies and DACs are all top top of the line and they are all 4 ohm rated, typically... If your stuck on having all the latest and greatest, well these receivers are usually slower on adding all the little extras, but if you want the best sound and great PQ components, they will best the competition.

Here is a Cambridge
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA640R

[callas01]

This ones on sale
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA650R

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by callas01

This ones on sale
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA650R

Now that is a beauty Callas! That's top of the line craftsmanship right there. Out of my reach, but awesome nevertheless.