Academy Ratio? - Blu-ray Forum

PuppyJonathan · 10-07-2012, 01:40 AM

I'm very confused, so I figured this place was the best to ask, I know this may not be the right subforum to talk about this but I couldn't find the one on the technical details of movies, so here may be my best bet (plus it kind of has to do with Blurays). I'm aware that mostly every movie from 1932-1950 was shot in Academy Ratio (1.37:1), but when there blurays come out the aspecet ratio of them is 1.33:1. However I did not know that the original negative is 1.33:1 but is matted down to Academy after the soundtrack is added. So is the absolute technical ratio 1.33:1, and academy ratio is just a mat? Also when the bluray comes out is it cropped to 1.33:1 or 1.37:1? I'm just very confused

charlieray1 · 10-07-2012, 02:25 AM

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that the difference between 1:33 and 1:37 is negligible. It's literally a few pixels. You'd have to compare shots side by side to tell, and it would be difficult even then.

WJWS Channel 13:Amity · 10-07-2012, 02:30 AM

just as note OP there were small number of movies in the very early 1930s that were shot in widescreen formats such as the big trail which was shot in Fox Graundure 70 among others.

BluShift · 11-10-2012, 02:56 PM

According to the Wikipedia article on "Academy Ratio", when sound on film was introduced, there was a transitional period lasting a few years.

The first phase was that there was no matting. This resulted in a narrower picture with a ratio of around 1.19:1.

However, as people were used to 1.33:1, it was decided to use a standard proposed by the Society of Motion Picture Engineers' (SMPE) of using 0.800 in by 0.600 in (20.3 mm by 15.2 mm) per frame. Basically, this kept the sound but reverted back to the 1.33:1 ratio.

However, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences (AMPAS) wanted a further change. Of the various dimensions proposed, it was decided to use 0.825 in by 0.600 in (21.0 mm by 15.2 mm) per frame. This resulted in the 1.375:1 aspect ratio, which was then dubbed the "Academy Ratio".

The relevant section in the article then ends by saying: "All studio films shot in 35mm from 1932 to 1952 were shot in the Academy ratio."

Don't know whether that answers the question that started this thread.

[Interestingly, the article "35mm film" in Wikipedia mentions dimensions of 0.866 in by 0.630 in (22 mm by 16 mm) for Academy, which is different from the above mentioned Academy.]

HyperRealist · 11-10-2012, 03:23 PM

Where is Deciazulado? That guy knows everything about film.

schweezie · 11-10-2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJWS Channel 13:Amity

just as note OP there were small number of movies in the very early 1930s that were shot in widescreen formats such as the big trail which was shot in Fox Graundure 70 among others.

I believe The Robe was the filmed in widescreen in 1953...I could be wrong here

filmtech · 11-10-2012, 04:41 PM

.825" x .602" is the Academy Standard for projection. However, the ANSI standard for cameras is a minimum aperture of .864" x 630". The maximum aperture possible is .980" x .735". The image is cropped when a married print with soundtrack is made. Cinematographers are generally most concerned with the image that will be on screen, not the image recorded on film. This is still true, as almost all films shot in 1.85 actually expose the whole 1.37 frame (studios require it).

As Charleyray1 pointed, the difference between 1.33 & 1.37 is minor. Until very recently, cinematographers never really expected their exact image to be seen intact. Between theater masking and TV overscan, there was always additional cropping expected.

Atreyu · 11-10-2012, 04:52 PM

This may be a bit off topic but...
I believe when a film is transfered to 3D some of the aspect ratio is lost, so I wonder how much, of the OAR will be lost when Warner turns The Wizard Of Oz into 3D?

HD Goofnut · 11-10-2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuppyJonathan

I'm very confused, so I figured this place was the best to ask, I know this may not be the right subforum to talk about this but I couldn't find the one on the technical details of movies, so here may be my best bet (plus it kind of has to do with Blurays). I'm aware that mostly every movie from 1932-1950 was shot in Academy Ratio (1.37:1), but when there blurays come out the aspecet ratio of them is 1.33:1. However I did not know that the original negative is 1.33:1 but is matted down to Academy after the soundtrack is added. So is the absolute technical ratio 1.33:1, and academy ratio is just a mat? Also when the bluray comes out is it cropped to 1.33:1 or 1.37:1? I'm just very confused

It actually depends on the individual title. Some are still 1.37:1 on BD like The Maltese Falcon for example.

retablo · 11-10-2012, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuppyJonathan

I'm very confused, so I figured this place was the best to ask, I know this may not be the right subforum to talk about this but I couldn't find the one on the technical details of movies, so here may be my best bet (plus it kind of has to do with Blurays). I'm aware that mostly every movie from 1932-1950 was shot in Academy Ratio (1.37:1), but when there blurays come out the aspecet ratio of them is 1.33:1. However I did not know that the original negative is 1.33:1 but is matted down to Academy after the soundtrack is added. So is the absolute technical ratio 1.33:1, and academy ratio is just a mat? Also when the bluray comes out is it cropped to 1.33:1 or 1.37:1? I'm just very confused

Considering that Wizard of Oz, Casablanca, and most pre-1953 films are in fact 1.37:1 on blu-ray (not 1.33:1 as you state), then 1.37:1 is the proper ratio after the soundtrack is added.

blu-ray_girl_fan · 11-10-2012, 06:03 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_(image)

ilovenola2 · 11-10-2012, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schweezie

I believe The Robe was the filmed in widescreen in 1953...I could be wrong here

You are correct. "The Robe" was the second feature filmed by Fox in the CinemaScope 2:55-1 aspect ratio (I believe I'm correct with the numbers here), but it was the first to be released. "How To Marry a Millionaire," featuring Marilyn Monroe in widescreen, was filmed first but released second.
Thus proving that Religion tops Sex in cinematic circles......at least in 1953!!

thebard · 11-10-2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilovenola2

You are correct. "The Robe" was the second feature filmed by Fox in the CinemaScope 2:55-1 aspect ratio (I believe I'm correct with the numbers here), but it was the first to be released. "How To Marry a Millionaire," featuring Marilyn Monroe in widescreen, was filmed first but released second.
Thus proving that Religion tops Sex in cinematic circles......at least in 1953!!

Actually, not quite. The previous poster is correct in that there were a few widescreen films shot in the 1930s using Fox's 70mm "Grandeuer" process, well ahead of Cinerama/Panavision/ToddAO. One was the John Wayne western "The Big Trail" (which incedentally gets a blu-ray release this month).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/70_mm_Grandeur_film

But because the new format would require retrofitting existing theaters at some expense, and because there was a Great Depression on, the system was soon dropped.

Interestingly, when shooting "The Big Trail", they wanted to acommodate as many theaters as possible, so they shot in 35mm simultaneously, and occasionally reshot certain scenes. So there are two versions of the film, each with different angles/composition.

A similar approach was taken decades later with Pixar's "A Bug's Life", albeit post-release. When preparing the home video version, Pixar took advantage of the digital medium and re-rendered the film to allow for difference scene composition for the 4:3 release.

Maxwell Everett · 11-10-2012, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilovenola2

You are correct. "The Robe" was the second feature filmed by Fox in the CinemaScope 2:55-1 aspect ratio (I believe I'm correct with the numbers here), but it was the first to be released. "How To Marry a Millionaire," featuring Marilyn Monroe in widescreen, was filmed first but released second.
Thus proving that Religion tops Sex in cinematic circles......at least in 1953!!

"The Robe" was actually 2.66:1 because they used the full camera aperture, 1.33:1 (silent aperture, aka Super-35) in combination with a 2x hypergonar (anamorphic) lens. The sound was on a separate 35mm magnetic film synched with the projector:

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingcs1.htm

moviebuff75 · 11-10-2012, 11:25 PM

How do the home video companies know which area of the academy frame to crop? On the "Citizen Kane" blu-ray, during the "March of Time" sequence, there is a newspaper with the sub-heading "End comes for editor at his Xanadu estate of illness of month." The UK dvd shows more on the right side, and the last word of that heading is "months." Now I know it is one letter, but it slightly changes the meaning of the headline. There is a bit cropped from the right side, but the blu shows more on the left...possibly too much as you can see where the black background for the newspaper to lay on ends and you see past it. So, which is correct? Does WB center the image? Can we trust that they cropped it correctly and that the newspaper heading was cropped as much or even more in 1941?

10-07-2012, 01:40 AM	#1
PuppyJonathan Blu-ray Guru Top contributor Member since:Apr 2012 Home Theater Gallery:6 Blu-ray collection:67 DVD collection:75	Academy Ratio? I'm very confused, so I figured this place was the best to ask, I know this may not be the right subforum to talk about this but I couldn't find the one on the technical details of movies, so here may be my best bet (plus it kind of has to do with Blurays). I'm aware that mostly every movie from 1932-1950 was shot in Academy Ratio (1.37:1), but when there blurays come out the aspecet ratio of them is 1.33:1. However I did not know that the original negative is 1.33:1 but is matted down to Academy after the soundtrack is added. So is the absolute technical ratio 1.33:1, and academy ratio is just a mat? Also when the bluray comes out is it cropped to 1.33:1 or 1.37:1? I'm just very confused

10-07-2012, 02:25 AM	#2
charlieray1 Blu-ray Guru Member since:Nov 2008 Location:Victorville, CA Blu-ray reviews: 1	I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that the difference between 1:33 and 1:37 is negligible. It's literally a few pixels. You'd have to compare shots side by side to tell, and it would be difficult even then.

10-07-2012, 02:30 AM	#3
WJWS Channel 13:Amity Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Feb 2010 Location:AMITY ISLAND Blu-ray collection:1073 Trading Score:156	just as note OP there were small number of movies in the very early 1930s that were shot in widescreen formats such as the big trail which was shot in Fox Graundure 70 among others.

11-10-2012, 02:56 PM	#4
BluShift Member Member since:Feb 2012	According to the Wikipedia article on "Academy Ratio", when sound on film was introduced, there was a transitional period lasting a few years. The first phase was that there was no matting. This resulted in a narrower picture with a ratio of around 1.19:1. However, as people were used to 1.33:1, it was decided to use a standard proposed by the Society of Motion Picture Engineers' (SMPE) of using 0.800 in by 0.600 in (20.3 mm by 15.2 mm) per frame. Basically, this kept the sound but reverted back to the 1.33:1 ratio. However, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences (AMPAS) wanted a further change. Of the various dimensions proposed, it was decided to use 0.825 in by 0.600 in (21.0 mm by 15.2 mm) per frame. This resulted in the 1.375:1 aspect ratio, which was then dubbed the "Academy Ratio". The relevant section in the article then ends by saying: "All studio films shot in 35mm from 1932 to 1952 were shot in the Academy ratio." Don't know whether that answers the question that started this thread. [Interestingly, the article "35mm film" in Wikipedia mentions dimensions of 0.866 in by 0.630 in (22 mm by 16 mm) for Academy, which is different from the above mentioned Academy.]

11-10-2012, 03:23 PM	#5
HyperRealist Blu-ray Ninja Top contributor Member since:Nov 2009 Location:PA Blu-ray collection:110 DVD collection:96 Trading Score:48	Where is Deciazulado? That guy knows everything about film.

11-10-2012, 04:41 PM	#7
filmtech Active Member Top contributor Member since:Jun 2012 Trading Score:103	.825" x .602" is the Academy Standard for projection. However, the ANSI standard for cameras is a minimum aperture of .864" x 630". The maximum aperture possible is .980" x .735". The image is cropped when a married print with soundtrack is made. Cinematographers are generally most concerned with the image that will be on screen, not the image recorded on film. This is still true, as almost all films shot in 1.85 actually expose the whole 1.37 frame (studios require it). As Charleyray1 pointed, the difference between 1.33 & 1.37 is minor. Until very recently, cinematographers never really expected their exact image to be seen intact. Between theater masking and TV overscan, there was always additional cropping expected.

11-10-2012, 04:52 PM	#8
Atreyu Blu-ray Knight Member since:Dec 2008 Location:North Carolina 4K collection:370 Blu-ray collection:1876 DVD collection:619 Digital collection:1 Blu-ray reviews: 293 Trading Score:4	This may be a bit off topic but... I believe when a film is transfered to 3D some of the aspect ratio is lost, so I wonder how much, of the OAR will be lost when Warner turns The Wizard Of Oz into 3D?

11-10-2012, 06:03 PM	#11
blu-ray_girl_fan Banned Top contributor Member since:Jun 2009 Blu-ray reviews:1 Trading Score:87	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_(image)

11-10-2012, 11:25 PM	#15
moviebuff75 Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Jul 2009 4K collection:119 Blu-ray collection:1499 DVD collection:14	How do the home video companies know which area of the academy frame to crop? On the "Citizen Kane" blu-ray, during the "March of Time" sequence, there is a newspaper with the sub-heading "End comes for editor at his Xanadu estate of illness of month." The UK dvd shows more on the right side, and the last word of that heading is "months." Now I know it is one letter, but it slightly changes the meaning of the headline. There is a bit cropped from the right side, but the blu shows more on the left...possibly too much as you can see where the black background for the newspaper to lay on ends and you see past it. So, which is correct? Does WB center the image? Can we trust that they cropped it correctly and that the newspaper heading was cropped as much or even more in 1941?

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