AVR, Blu-ray, analog audio, DTS master & Dolby True HD

[duder1234]

Hi guys,

Denon AVR 2803
Pioneer BDP-320

Well, after reading the sticky about a non HDMI receiver and the ability to play DTS Master and Dolby True HD, I picked up some analogue audio cables from monoprice.com.

Hook em' ep...and I have sound.

However, the LFE was very low at first...not to mention all the speakers. I figured out that the AVR's EXT. IN subwoofer level was at 0dB, so I put it back at the default of +15dB. LFE is better.

But...It seems as thought the BDP-320 is bypassing my AVR's 80Hz crossover. I even have the BDP's crossover set to 80Hz. I say this because the LFE became a bit muddy. I popped in some test tones and the sub was playing frequencies higher than 80 Hz.

I checked my AVR's initial settings (levels, distance, crossover) and they all remained unchanged from my optical/digital days.

I can adjust the level, distance, and crossover in the BDP-320's menu...but I was advised to use the AVR for adjustments if possible.

Basically, I have sound...but it's as if there is no crossover. Could this "effect" be the change from digital to analog sound?

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks!

[progers13]

Originally Posted by duder1234

Hi guys,

Denon AVR 2803
Pioneer BDP-320

Well, after reading the sticky about a non HDMI receiver and the ability to play DTS Master and Dolby True HD, I picked up some analogue audio cables from monoprice.com.

Hook em' ep...and I have sound.

However, the LFE was very low at first...not to mention all the speakers. I figured out that the AVR's EXT. IN subwoofer level was at 0dB, so I put it back at the default of +15dB. LFE is better.

But...It seems as thought the BDP-320 is bypassing my AVR's 80Hz crossover. I even have the BDP's crossover set to 80Hz. I say this because the LFE became a bit muddy. I popped in some test tones and the sub was playing frequencies higher than 80 Hz.

I checked my AVR's initial settings (levels, distance, crossover) and they all remained unchanged from my optical/digital days.

I can adjust the level, distance, and crossover in the BDP-320's menu...but I was advised to use the AVR for adjustments if possible.

Basically, I have sound...but it's as if there is no crossover. Could this "effect" be the change from digital to analogue sound?

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks!

Hey buddy, to clarify: you're running analog outs from your player to your receiver to get lossless right? If so, the player will need to perform your bass management. If I'm not mistaken, this method bypasses your receiver's ability to do it. You would be best letting the receiver do it if you were using HDMI, but since you are going multichannel input to the receiver, the player has to do it.

[duder1234]

Originally Posted by progers13

Hey buddy, to clarify: you're running analog outs from your player to your receiver to get lossless right? If so, the player will need to perform your bass management. If I'm not mistaken, this method bypasses your receiver's ability to do it. You would be best letting the receiver do it if you were using HDMI, but since you are going multichannel input to the receiver, the player has to do it.

Hey, progers!

Yes, trying to get the lossless audio w/ RCA red/white cables.

Unfortunately, the only thing my receiver has is scales and claws...no HDMI .

Yeah, I was unsure if the player would bypass my AVR's setting and basically turn it into an amp.

Any idea why it seems like there is no crossover?

Here is a little snipit from the AVR's manual, not sure if it has anything to do with my situation (translations are welcome):

Once "EXT. IN" is selected, the input signals connected to the "EXT. IN" jacks are output directly to the speakers as well as the pre-out jacks (subwoofer) without passing through the surround circuitry.

[dg5150]

Originally Posted by duder1234

Hey, progers!

Yes, trying to get the lossless audio w/ RCA red/white cables.

Unfortunately, the only thing my receiver has is scales and claws...no HDMI .

Yeah, I was unsure if the player would bypass my AVR's setting and basically turn it into an amp.

Any idea why it seems like there is no crossover?

Here is a little snipit from the AVR's manual, not sure if it has anything to do with my situation (translations are welcome):

Once "EXT. IN" is selected, the input signals connected to the "EXT. IN" jacks are output directly to the speakers as well as the pre-out jacks (subwoofer) without passing through the surround circuitry.

This has everything to do with your situation. There is no crossover because the analog signal bypasses any processing. The multi channel in has no crossovers, all the bass management has to be done in the player. Set your speakers to small or large accordingly in your player menu, and see if you notice any difference.

[duder1234]

Originally Posted by dg5150

This has everything to do with your situation. There is no crossover because the analog signal bypasses any processing. The multi channel in has no crossovers, all the bass management has to be done in the player. Set your speakers to small or large accordingly in your player menu, and see if you notice any difference.

I currently have the fronts and center set to small and the crossover set to 80Hz in the BDP-320. Bass still sounds a bit "off". It was more "tight" in the optical/digital mode.

Thanks for translating BTW .

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by duder1234

But...It seems as though the BDP-320 is bypassing my AVR's 80Hz crossover. I even have the BDP's crossover set to 80Hz. I say this because the LFE became a bit muddy. I popped in some test tones and the sub was playing frequencies higher than 80 Hz.

Two things here:
(1) LFE is not affected by the bass management crossover. LFE always goes to the sub and if there's audio higher than 80Hz in the LFE channel, then it will be played by the sub. The crossover only controls the additional audio rerouted from the other channels to the sub by bass management.
(2) The AVR's speaker settings are bypassed when using the analog inputs. So, you must set the crossover for bass management in the player.

I checked my AVR's initial settings (levels, distance, crossover) and they all remained unchanged from my optical/digital days.

As well they should. But, again, the distance settings and bass management crossover are not used with the external inputs. You can likely set channel levels in your receiver. Newer Denons make it possible to set levels separately for analog and digital. I don't know if that's possible with an 03 model.

I can adjust the level, distance, and crossover in the BDP-320's menu...but I was advised to use the AVR for adjustments if possible.

You may have heard that from me. But, that advice only applies to channel levels. Distances and bass management have to be done in the player.

Basically, I have sound...but it's as if there is no crossover. Could this "effect" be the change from digital to analog sound?

Well, there's really no such thing as "digital sound". Digital must always be converted to analog to produce sound. The conversion usually happens in the receiver. With analog, you are doing the conversion in the player. But, it's the same process producing analog audio either way.

So, if you haven't done the speaker setups in your player, you'll need to do them. Set the crossover and distances, just as you did with the receiver when you set it up. Then use an SPL meter to calibrate the channel levels.

Players lack room correction and if you had a newer AVR with EQ, that might account for the difference. But, if memory serves, a 2803 doesn't do room correction. So, I think it's really just a matter of doing the proper setups in the player and calibrating levels. I have a 3805 and use both analog and digital connections from a Panasonic BD55 player.

[duder1234]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Two things here:
(1) LFE is not affected by the bass management crossover. LFE always goes to the sub and if there's audio higher than 80Hz in the LFE channel, then it will be played by the sub. The crossover only controls the additional audio rerouted from the other channels to the sub by bass management.
(2) The AVR's speaker settings are bypassed when using the analog inputs. So, you must set the crossover for bass management in the player.

As well they should. But, again, the distance settings and bass management crossover are not used with the external inputs. You can likely set channel levels in your receiver. Newer Denons make it possible to set levels separately for analog and digital. I don't know if that's possible with an 03 model.

You may have heard that from me. But, that advice only applies to channel levels. Distances and bass management have to be done in the player.

Well, there's really no such thing as "digital sound". Digital must always be converted to analog to produce sound. The conversion usually happens in the receiver. With analog, you are doing the conversion in the player. But, it's the same process producing analog audio either way.

So, if you haven't done the speaker setups in your player, you'll need to do them. Set the crossover and distances, just as you did with the receiver when you set it up. Then use an SPL meter to calibrate the channel levels.

Players lack room correction and if you had a newer AVR with EQ, that might account for the difference. But, if memory serves, a 2803 doesn't do room correction. So, I think it's really just a matter of doing the proper setups in the player and calibrating levels. I have a 3805 and use both analog and digital connections from a Panasonic BD55 player.

Yeah, the 03 only allows me to adjust digital connections (in the main menu).

I can set the "levels" in the BDP-320, but its a little different than the 2803's method. With the BDP-320 I have to turn up the AVR's volume until it gets into the 70dB range on the SPL meter. From there, I can fine tune the level in order to get as close to 75dB's as possible (-6dB to +6dB of adjustment in the BDP-320). When I used the AVR's level control, I had no control over the volume knob, just the main menu level setting (-15dB to +15dB in the AVR 2803).

I can, however, adjust the EXT. IN's subwoofer level control in the AVR 2803's main menu. This does make a difference when in analog/EXT. IN mode. Its at the +15dB default right now. I may set it to 0dB and use the level control on the back of the subwoofers amplifier instead.

Correct, my AVR does not have room EQ technology.

[BIslander]

Here's what I suggest.

Set speaker sizes, crossovers, and distances in the player.

Set the player output levels to 0.

Add the +10dB or +15dB Ext In SW boost in the AVR. (+10dB if all speakers are set to large in the player, +15dB if any are set to small)

Select Ext. In on the AVR and calibrate levels on the receiver (not the player) using a calibration disc and an SPL meter. See the bottom half of p68 in the manual. It explains how you can adjust channel levels using the remote. This is different than the method used to set the master channel levels in the system setup. You'll want to set the master volume to 0dB and then use the channel trims to adjust each channel to 75dB.

On my 05 model year Denon, adjusting the channels this way only affects the Ext In trims, meaning the master digital calibration will be unchanged. The 03 manual does not contain the same language about separate trim levels by surround mode. So, I don't know whether the two models work the same way. But, regardless, calibrating this way will get analog sounding right.

btw, in looking through the 2803 manual, I see it does mention EQ as part of the auto set-up function. If you are using one of the EQ settings, that could account for some difference in the sound quality between digital and analog.

EDIT: per the discussion that follows in the next few posts, level trimming is actually on p49 of the manual, not p68. And, there's no EQ on the 2803. I was looking at the wrong manual online.

[duder1234]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Here's what I suggest.

Set speaker sizes, crossovers, and distances in the player.

Set the player output levels to 0.

Add the +10dB or +15dB Ext In SW boost in the AVR. (+10dB if all speakers are set to large in the player, +15dB if any are set to small)

Select Ext. In on the AVR and calibrate levels on the receiver (not the player) using a calibration disc and an SPL meter. See the bottom half of p68 in the manual. It explains how you can adjust channel levels using the remote. This is different than the method used to set the master channel levels in the system setup. You'll want to set the master volume to 0dB and then use the channel trims to adjust each channel to 75dB.

On my 05 model year Denon, adjusting the channels this way only affects the Ext In trims, meaning the master digital calibration will be unchanged. The 03 manual does not contain the same language about separate trim levels by surround mode. So, I don't know whether the two models work the same way. But, regardless, calibrating this way will get analog sounding right.

btw, in looking through the 2803 manual, I see it does mention EQ as part of the auto set-up function. If you are using one of the EQ settings, that could account for some difference in the sound quality between digital and analog.

I'm looking at my 2803 manual...pg. 68, and there's no talk of adjusting channel levels using the remote.

Could you tell me what page the EQ info is on...I've never come across it in my manual before.

Thanks for all the help so far!

On a side note, I used both the analog and digital signals when playing a movie. I then hit the "display" button on my BDP-320's remote. In BOTH cases it showed 48Hz and 3-5mbps. Does this mean I'm not getting DTS Master/ Dolby true HD? I thought the lossless would be a higher mbps.

*EDIT* I found this on pg. 49

[LordoftheRings]

^ If you play the Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA audio soundtrack from the Blu-ray disc,
and your Pioneer BD player is decoding it and sending it over its mutichannel analog outs (through PCM), then you are getting the High Res audio (48 Khz, 3-5 mbps).

You're doin' just great.

* And you can even fine-tune the channel levels on the fly with your Denon AVR-2803 as it allows that from its EXT. In (mutichannel analog inputs), and separately of all the other Surround audio modes; a great feature for sure.

(I personally adjust the Ext. In Subwoofer level to +10 dB, but it all depends of where you set that sub channel level in your Pioneer 320 BD player.) This is another great feature from Denon receivers.
-> And on my sub itself I set the Gain (Volume level) at about 1/3 of its rotary knob position.
- And set the LPF (or called sometimes Crossover) on your sub itself at its highest position (or "Bypass" if avail).
- The "Phase" switch is more tricky; you need an Audio test disc for that. But basically you want the most power output around the speaker's x-overs with your sub (80 Hz in your case).

** A Radio Shack analog SPL meter should help you out to balance all the levels. And a Test Disc with Audio tests including the Subwoofer channel level, is another great tool to have in your Audio arsenal.
>>> Add a couple dBs to the Sub channel after the calibration process; it's to compensate for the inaccuracy of the Rat Shack meter at lower audio frequencies. You can do it from your Denon receiver, it don't really matter.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by duder1234

I'm looking at my 2803 manual...pg. 68, and there's no talk of adjusting channel levels using the remote.

*EDIT* I found this on pg. 49

That's it. My error. I must have been looking at the 2805 manual online, not the 2803. But, that particular page is the same in both manuals.

Could you tell me what page the EQ info is on...I've never come across it in my manual before.

You're right. It's not in the 2803 manual. Sorry about that.

On a side note, I used both the analog and digital signals when playing a movie. I then hit the "display" button on my BDP-320's remote. In BOTH cases it showed 48Hz and 3-5mbps. Does this mean I'm not getting DTS Master/ Dolby true HD? I thought the lossless would be a higher mbps.

Apples and oranges. The player is only playing the one track you selected on the disc and that's what the player display is showing. It is not showing you anything about the two different outputs you're trying.

The digital bitstream output over optical is actually a lossy version of the lossless track that's being played. If you select a dts-MA track, the lossy DTS output will be 1.5 mbps. If you select a TrueHD track, the lossy DD 5.1 output will be 640 kbps.

Meanwhile, the analog output is something completely different. The digital file has already been converted to analog by the player and there's no such thing as bitrate when it comes to measuring/describing analog.

As for expecting to see a higher bitrate on the player display with dts-MA and TrueHD, lossless codecs use variable bitrates, taking as much bandwidth as they need at any given moment. If you are only seeing 3-5 mbps, that's all the track requires at that particular time.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

* And you can even fine-tune the channel levels on the fly with your Denon AVR-2803 as it allows that from its EXT. In (mutichannel analog inputs), and separately of all the other Surround audio modes; a great feature for sure.

Are you sure that's the case with the 2803 - that the adjustments using the remote as described on p49 for Ext In do not affect other surround modes? I ask because p23 of the manual describes the surround modes where independent levels can be set, and Ext In is not included on the list. Ext In IS included as an independent surround mode for trimming purposes in the manual for the 05 models. Perhaps, the 03 models worked the same way and the manual was simply incomplete back then. But, that's not clear to me.

Regardless, I believe that selecting Ext In and doing the level trims per p49 of the manual should get the analog outputs calibrated correctly.

[progers13]

Hi duder! Sorry I wasn't able to stick around and help you last night. I am glad to see that you are in good hands with BIslander. Looks like he's been able to give you all the information you need.

[duder1234]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

^ If you play the Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA audio soundtrack from the Blu-ray disc,
and your Pioneer BD player is decoding it and sending it over its mutichannel analog outs (through PCM), then you are getting the High Res audio (48 Khz, 3-5 mbps).

You're doin' just great.

* And you can even fine-tune the channel levels on the fly with your Denon AVR-2803 as it allows that from its EXT. In (mutichannel analog inputs), and separately of all the other Surround audio modes; a great feature for sure.

(I personally adjust the Ext. In Subwoofer level to +10 dB, but it all depends of where you set that sub channel level in your Pioneer 320 BD player.) This is another great feature from Denon receivers.
-> And on my sub itself I set the Gain (Volume level) at about 1/3 of its rotary knob position.
- And set the LPF (or called sometimes Crossover) on your sub itself at its highest position (or "Bypass" if avail).
- The "Phase" switch is more tricky; you need an Audio test disc for that. But basically you want the most power output around the speaker's x-overs with your sub (80 Hz in your case).

** A Radio Shack analog SPL meter should help you out to balance all the levels. And a Test Disc with Audio tests including the Subwoofer channel level, is another great tool to have in your Audio arsenal.
>>> Add a couple dBs to the Sub channel after the calibration process; it's to compensate for the inaccuracy of the Rat Shack meter at lower audio frequencies. You can do it from your Denon receiver, it don't really matter.

Thanks for the moral support and info. LOTR!

Do you have a 2803?

Originally Posted by BIslander

That's it. My error. I must have been looking at the 2805 manual online, not the 2803. But, that particular page is the same in both manuals.

You're right. It's not in the 2803 manual. Sorry about that.

Apples and oranges. The player is only playing the one track you selected on the disc and that's what the player display is showing. It is not showing you anything about the two different outputs you're trying.

The digital bitstream output over optical is actually a lossy version of the lossless track that's being played. If you select a dts-MA track, the lossy DTS output will be 1.5 mbps. If you select a TrueHD track, the lossy DD 5.1 output will be 640 kbps.

Meanwhile, the analog output is something completely different. The digital file has already been converted to analog by the player and there's no such thing as bitrate when it comes to measuring/describing analog.

As for expecting to see a higher bitrate on the player display with dts-MA and TrueHD, lossless codecs use variable bitrates, taking as much bandwidth as they need at any given moment. If you are only seeing 3-5 mbps, that's all the track requires at that particular time.

Thanks for the info BIslander .

No worries about the page stuff. Keeps me on my toes .

Originally Posted by BIslander

Are you sure that's the case with the 2803 - that the adjustments using the remote as described on p49 for Ext In do not affect other surround modes? I ask because p23 of the manual describes the surround modes where independent levels can be set, and Ext In is not included on the list. Ext In IS included as an independent surround mode for trimming purposes in the manual for the 05 models. Perhaps, the 03 models worked the same way and the manual was simply incomplete back then. But, that's not clear to me.

Regardless, I believe that selecting Ext In and doing the level trims per p49 of the manual should get the analog outputs calibrated correctly.

Here are some more pages from the manual that might "help you help me".






I'm going to give all the recommendations a shot today. I'll most likely be using this CD (should I pic up something better?):http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

Originally Posted by progers13

Hi duder! Sorry I wasn't able to stick around and help you last night. I am glad to see that you are in good hands with BIslander. Looks like he's been able to give you all the information you need.

Hey progers, no problem...you got things started off . I understand that you need sleep . Thanks for the help though .

[duder1234]

couple things:

1. It looks like the 2803 does save the analog and digital levels separately, so thats nice.

2. When using the CD with pink noise, I can't get center channel sound. Is that because its an audio Cd and the player thinks its best in stereo? I tried to change the audio playback, but it only gives me 1/L, 2/R, and stereo.

*EDIT* I popped in a DVD movie...and its still in stereo! I then popped in a blu-ray and the center is active again. WTF?

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by duder1234

couple things:

1. It looks like the 2803 does save the analog and digital levels separately, so thats nice.

How'd you determine that? I was going to suggest that you adjust something significantly for Ext In, like turn the left channel way down, and then see if you still get a normal left channel level with a digital input. Also, if you turn off the Denon or switch to a different input, does it remember the analog level trims when you turn it back on?

2. When using the CD with pink noise, I can't get center channel sound. Is that because its an audio Cd and the player thinks its best in stereo? I tried to change the audio playback, but it only gives me 1/L, 2/R, and stereo.

Yes, CDs are limited to stereo PCM and a stereo source will only output to the L/R channels. It's best to get a disc from some place like Avia or DVE. AIX Records has a good Blu-ray Audio Calibration disc. Also, some DVDs have THX Optimizers, which you can use, too.

Originally Posted by duder1234

*EDIT* I popped in a DVD movie...and its still in stereo! I then popped in a blu-ray and the center is active again. WTF?

Are you decoding the DVD in the player and using the analog outputs? If so, the problem would be on the player side. I'm not familiar with Pioneer set-ups. Perhaps there's a setting for DD and DTS outputs that is different from the setting for lossless BD playback. Or, you might have selected a stereo track on the DVD?

[duder1234]

Originally Posted by BIslander

How'd you determine that? I was going to suggest that you adjust something significantly for Ext In, like turn the left channel way down, and then see if you still get a normal left channel level with a digital input. Also, if you turn off the Denon or switch to a different input, does it remember the analog level trims when you turn it back on?

Yes, CDs are limited to stereo PCM and a stereo source will only output to the L/R channels. It's best to get a disc from some place like Avia or DVE. AIX Records has a good Blu-ray Audio Calibration disc. Also, some DVDs have THX Optimizers, which you can use, too.

I set the channel levels in EXT. IN mode with the remote (-7.5dB). I could only get the volume down to -10dB...otherwise it would have been to loud. I then hooked up the AVR to a monitor and checked the main channel levels in the menu. They were the same as before -6.5dB. So it looks like it saved both...cool.

I have a DVD with THX optimizer (star wars). That should work...right? I'll try again, but when I popped that sucker in I only got stereo (I didn't try the THX optimizer though).

*EDIT* Ok, the THX optimizer gives me a chsssssssssssssh through all channels. Is that pink noise? If so, I'll go ahead and use that to set the levels of the 3 speakers.

*EDIT* I played some of the movie...center works...it was jus the dvds menu that was in stereo.

*EDIT* I used the optimizer and heres what I got with the AVR's master volume at 0dB:

@ approx. 75dB:

FL: +1.0dB
C: 0.0dB
FR: +2.0dB
SW: +7.0dB

With the AVR's pink noise I was in the -5.0dB to -6.5dB range for the 3 front speakers.

[BIslander]

Unfortunately, the channel level measurements on the player and/or AVR don't tell you what you need to know to calibrate properly. You need to know the actual volume level at the listening position. That can only be done with an SPL meter.

You need to set the Denon master volume to 0. That's loud. Then play the tones on the disc and adjust the channel trims on the Denon so that each channel measures 75dB at the listening position. You can try to this by ear instead of using a meter. But, your ear is never going to be as precise, especially with the subwoofer.

The 0 dB master volume level on the AVR is used as the reference for calibration. You won't play anything that loud, at least not very often.

[duder1234]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Unfortunately, the channel level measurements on the player and/or AVR don't tell you what you need to know to calibrate properly. You need to know the actual volume level at the listening position. That can only be done with an SPL meter.

You need to set the Denon master volume to 0. That's loud. Then play the tones on the disc and adjust the channel trims on the Denon so that each channel measures 75dB at the listening position. You can try to this by ear instead of using a meter. But, your ear is never going to be as precise, especially with the subwoofer.

The 0 dB master volume level on the AVR is used as the reference for calibration. You won't play anything that loud, at least not very often.

Sorry if I confused you. I did do all of the above with an SPL meter and with the 2803's volume at 0dB. Thing is, it wasn't that loud at all...until I boosted the trim levels to the +1's above.

The speakers are sounding good. In fact, I don't think I can tell a difference between this and optical. go figure. HOWEVER, what I can tell the difference between is the muddy bass I'm getting with the analog connections. The bass was much tighter when using the optical cable.

Its weird, its almost as if the sub (when in analog) is trying to play higher frequencies. For instance, when optimus prime is doing the intro to TF2, its sound like the sub is trying to reproduce his voice. When the optical cable is selected, the subwoofer doesn't seem so whooomy/booomy. Thats my big problem.

[progers13]

Originally Posted by duder1234

Sorry if I confused you. I did do all of the above with an SPL meter and with the 2803's volume at 0dB. Thing is, it wasn't that loud at all...until I boosted the trim levels to the +1's above.

The speakers are sounding good. In fact, I don't think I can tell a difference between this and optical. go figure. HOWEVER, what I can tell the difference between is the muddy bass I'm getting with the analog connections. The bass was much tighter when using the optical cable.

Its weird, its almost as if the sub (when in analog) is trying to play higher frequencies. For instance, when optimus prime is doing the intro to TF2, its sound like the sub is trying to reproduce his voice. When the optical cable is selected, the subwoofer doesn't seem so whooomy/booomy. Thats my big problem.

Hmmm...this is just a shot in the dark, but have you verified that you have everything connected properly? If the sub is trying to reproduce voices, is it possible that maybe your analog outs from the player are not correctly matched up to the corresponding inputs on your receiver?