comments to Amir edited at AVS.

[Danno]

but saved for posterity.

The mods rushed to his defense in record time.

Originally Posted by amirm

I don’t claim to be the expert here. But I have spent a decade managing and helping develop both lossless codecs and lossy codecs. I grew up with audio as my hobby and designed amplifiers and such while I was going to high school. I later became an electrical engineer and have managed development of professional audio and video gear for the broadcast industry. I have spent more money on my audio hobby than 99% of the people out there. My headphones alone cost more than most people's home theater (Stax electrostatic with differential tube amp and its sister with differential transistor output stage, clocking at $14K for both). This is driven by a Mark Levinson DAC which costs $8K. All the box does is convert digital audio to analog to drive said speaker. So I have invested as much as a car just for stereo audio!

I have provided references to Bob Stuart's excellent paper on the non-sense around 24-bit audio. Bob is founder of Meridian who is in the business to convince you that you must spend $40K on audio equipment. Yet he doesn't want to sell you specs but reality. And the reality is that superb audio can be reproduced with much more conservative sounding specs. And that there is no difference in fidelity after that point.

Then we have Marc (Filmmixer) who creates audio tracks used for both BD and HD DVD. If you want to call his motives into question, the please go and do that in insider thread, not behind his back.

John is likewise, providing moral support. And we know the reputation of this company.

Everyone here speaks with one voice: that is, don't believe specs. Believe reality. And be pragmatic. Don't ask for 24-bit audio when the best recorded material is probably 16-bits. Don't insist on lossless if you haven't heard the comparison to high rate lossy, etc.

At end of the day, threads like this go on forever. So I won't post more but I hope people don't dismiss so many people asking to not fall for marketing claims....

And I'm telling you straight up that all of this^^ is a line you're being paid to feed to the unsuspecting, or unknowledgable consumer, because you're counting on the fact that most of them won't be able to tell the difference.

Given that HD-DVD's target demographic is Joe6pack with a small wallet who can only afford a $199 disc player, you may be completely correct in your assertion that most people who will buy into HD DVD won't be able to tell the difference between lossy and lossless.

But you do anyone with a background in semi-pro/pro-audio a complete disservice in pronouncing that NO ONE will.

I also have a feeling you do, in fact, know better, but your contractual obligations and payscale dictate that you must state otherwise.

You do realize of course that from the perspective of the educated consumer on the format War - you're the equivalent of Napoleon Bonaparte, and the Transformers HD DVD release is being looked at as your Waterloo, right?

[Amel]

He can write whatever he wants, but there is just a small amount of people who read his posts. Most of them are hardcore HDDVD fans...Nothing to worry about..The bigger audience will receive and understand the message Sony and their friends will bring out on bluray. We are talking about audio and video quality, marketing and experience.

[CAB]

I think what has been missing is some perspective that maybe the a-man has provided. For the titles in question, maybe the studio master was low bit rate or just plain crappy. In those cases I can see why insisting on 24-bit, 48+ Khz is pointless. I'll be clear on what I am insisting upon. . .

A format that has the bandwidth and storage capacity to support high bitrate audio and video at the same time when it is appropriate. In this amateur's opinion, the limits of HD-DVD have been reached with today's releases. Blu-ray's limits are designed to support the future.

Lastly, I don't trust that the average-joe, even those who spend thousands on their gear, has it setup to deliver to its potential.

[LynxFX]

Hmm, sounds like the mantra of BOSE. "Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain."

[WickyWoo]

Someone should really start cataloging the Lost Archive of Amir

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Yeah, the A-man started talking the crap in another forum I hang out in. I read the whitepaper he provided and then proceeded to bust his @ss with it and other whitepapers.

He stopped posting there. He said I was probably a member of some Project Hydra or something. What is Project Hydra anyway?

[Brain Sturgeon]

There is no way that anyone who would (allegedly) drop that much money on high end audio gear could possibly feel that lossy audio, even high bit rate, is just as good as lossless. So I guess he would rather listen to 256 kbps AAC via AirTunes connected by TosLink to his ML DAC than two channel 24/96 MLP via an Ayre C5-xe through those expensive tube amps/cans of his, for instance?

Absolute rubbish. One, I'd like to see the pics of his audio setup to prove that he actually owns it, and two, he needs his hearing checked.

Invoking the name of Bob Stuart of Meridian, whose company champions MLP 24/96, is also laughable. Arguing about the necessity of word length (16, 20, 24 bits) in digital music reproduction is one thing, but lossless vs lossy is a whole 'nother issue.

[PS3PSP]

Not surprising that your post was edited from AVS. That place is like going to Mars! Today, they are going bonkers trying to devalue and deject the new info about Blu-ray stand alones beating HD-DVD stand alones.

[Uxi]

Heh, I saw his reply but not yours since I was either working on my reply or actually working (sometimes expected to do that, unfortunately ).

[Merlins]

He was thinking about leaving AVS back in Mars. Here is a post by him that later got removed. The other site he is refering to is HDD:

Originally Posted by amirm

Originally Posted by amirm
This is a topic which I have briefly covered before but it seems that it is not broadly known so I am going to make a posting on it. I hope the mods forgive me for deviating from Q/A format for this one post.

I am sure many of you have noticed that I have focused my participation on AVS to this one Insider thread. The reason goes back a few weeks to the last firestorm in some other thread(s). Tensions ran high, threads were closed and posts were deleted. I don’t actually recall the specifics, but did get a PM from one of the mods as a result of it. In there was a request to consider only participating in the Insider thread.

At first, my reaction was to quickly say “NO” as there are clearly discussions which are worthwhile which occur outside of this thread. But it took all of 30 seconds to realize that the suggestion was a good one. So from that moment on, I followed it and stayed here. Occasionally I might comment in “safe” threads such as support questions in HD DVD sections, but that is it.

Reflecting back, it has been mostly a positive change. I have saved a ton of time in not having to answer every argument, which was handy as we launched some other products in my group which also needed my attention. It is also much less stressful to answer questions, than to argue . My post count is stuck in the mud but it is already high enough to be embracing .

Yes, there is a down side to only living here. Often someone sends me a link to something, I read it and realize that I could add something to the conversation but just can’t. The other drawback is that the format for this thread by definition, forces me to follow the topics/questions posed by others. As a result, you get a disjointed view of technology, politics, or whatever from me, not a cohesive view. In a way, you control what I say and when I say it and that may make it hard for people to get a complete picture of things. To deal with this, I might write up more detailed explanations as you saw in my description of AVC vs VC-1. But even those will be triggered by questions as opposed to topics I might pick.

Overall, I probably need to find another outlet to have less sterile discussion with folks but hopefully in the same respectful manner that exists in this thread. People have suggested I start a blog, which I finally plan to do (although the blog will be far wider in topics than HD formats). I was also asked to participate in another forum which I have done although I spend far more time here than there, even though I roam free in that forum. I won’t mention the name of that forum but there is some learning from the way they have divided their forum to avoid some of the pitfalls of this one.

Some people think I am a coward for not going outside for a fist fight on some topics . Hopefully the above convinces you that this is not the case. I have been participating in public Internet forums going back some 25 years (yes, there was an Internet then ). It has always been tough to participate as such, whether it was for hobby or business. There are so many knowledgeable people who can argue well for their point of view. So while I have settled in this thread due to circumstances, people should not assume that this is my style. It is not but it is what works best in the social structure of this forum.

As a related aside, I am also highly limiting my posts to other insiders here. I am not religious about this one but will bite my tongue and only post when I really feel compelled.

The mods should feel free to delete this post although if they do choose to do so, I hope they consider leaving it here for a couple of days for folks to get the message. I also hope all follow ups to this post are in another thread. I will commit to reading your comments there but of course, won’t be able to respond.

Respectfully,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820672

[Luis_A51]

All his post proves is that either hes

1) an outright liar
or
2) an idiot with too much money

Ill bet hes lieing about having that equip and also about lossy being just as good. If you cant tell the difference between lossy and lossless with a setup that expensive then you've got a tin ear and you simply wasted your money.

[Danno]

I basically cornered him now, and completely refuted one of his claims. As expected, his supporters are asking me to apologize to him for calling him a liar (when I factually proved that he lied) and I've received a warning for my condescending behavior.

I didn't realize the truth was condescending. I guess it is when you're a corporate shill who is also deaf as a doornail.

[dakota81]

I had earlier replied to that post as well, just as a reminder that Amir is speaking in the best interests of selling a product, not in the best interests of the technologies out there, or the best interests of the consumer. If we keep up, AVS should eventually have to do something.

[CAB]

@Danno

Linkz!

[MrBogey]

FWIW... I've found most hardcore enthusiasts talk about the ability of their machines before they talk up the price. The ones who talk up cost and then mention specs afterwards are suaully people with too much money to spend and not enough discernability to care.

[Danno]

Originally Posted by CAB

@Danno

Linkz!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=903596&page=8

by the way, I've just received an "infraction".

apparently I have to go to detention, and see the Principal. I may even have to clean the erasers and act as a hall monitor if I keep this up.

[jamclaur]

lame

[groovyone]

Originally Posted by PS3PSP

Not surprising that your post was edited from AVS. That place is like going to Mars! Today, they are going bonkers trying to devalue and deject the new info about Blu-ray stand alones beating HD-DVD stand alones.

Exploring Mars has some hope of furthering science, unlike that section of AVS...

[Bigdog]

There is absolutely nothing worse then some candya@@ who has to brag about what he paid for this or that and it being the reason why he is right and everyone else is wrong! I cant stand rich people who have to brag and throw it in the faces of other people to make themselves feel superior to all the so called regular people!

[lch]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

So I guess he would rather listen to 256 kbps AAC via AirTunes connected by TosLink to his ML DAC than two channel 24/96 MLP via an Ayre C5-xe through those expensive tube amps/cans of his, for instance?

that will never happen.
he's ms and apple is pro-blu.
he more likely to listen 64kbps wma using his zune plug into his expensive amps and i bet he will tell us he can't tell the difference.