Would increasing the distance between my speakers help with localization issues?

[test123455]

Hi all, I was starting to think that something was wrong with my right speaker that I just bought (bought two Monitor 70s and a CS2), but i am beginning to think that its because the speakers are too close. I feel like the left might be more detailed/fuller/better than the right.

When its in stereo, i feel like i hear it towards the left center more than the right. I tried switching wires and running tones and it seems the same so im pretty sure that the right speaker is ok and its not a bad receiver channel either. I didnt seem to have this problem with my tiny Onkyo satellite speakers though. Most of it seemed to be a bad initial Audyssey calibration, and a re-calibration helped tremendously (if not completely, i still have to play around with it).

Should i try to separate them further? Any advice about toe-in (do i just point them towards the center seating position)?

Any advice?

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by test123455

Hi all, I was starting to think that something was wrong with my right speaker that I just bought (bought two Monitor 70s and a CS2), but i am beginning to think that its because the speakers are too close. I feel like the left might be more detailed/fuller/better than the right.

When its in stereo, i feel like i hear it towards the left center more than the right. I tried switching wires and running tones and it seems the same so im pretty sure that the right speaker is ok and its not a bad receiver channel either. I didnt seem to have this problem with my tiny Onkyo satellite speakers though. Most of it seemed to be a bad initial Audyssey calibration, and a re-calibration helped tremendously (if not completely, i still have to play around with it).

Should i try to separate them further? Any advice about toe-in (do i just point them towards the center seating position)?

Any advice?

What you want to have between the sweet spot ( main sitting position ) & fronts is a perfect triangle. If you sit 8 feet from the front right then it should be 8 feet between the front right & left speaker. I know some rooms that can be hard to do but that is what you are after.

Try it to see if it helps !

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by test123455

Hi all, I was starting to think that something was wrong with my right speaker that I just bought (bought two Monitor 70s and a CS2), but i am beginning to think that its because the speakers are too close. I feel like the left might be more detailed/fuller/better than the right.

When its in stereo, i feel like i hear it towards the left center more than the right. I tried switching wires and running tones and it seems the same so im pretty sure that the right speaker is ok and its not a bad receiver channel either. I didnt seem to have this problem with my tiny Onkyo satellite speakers though. Most of it seemed to be a bad initial Audyssey calibration, and a re-calibration helped tremendously (if not completely, i still have to play around with it).

Should i try to separate them further? Any advice about toe-in (do i just point them towards the center seating position)?

Any advice?

First of all, switch the location of the two speakers (move the right speaker to the left and left speaker to the right). Use an SPL meter and adjust the level of each speaker to be exactly the same at the main sweet spot. Play some CDs to find out if you hear a difference. You want to make sure one of the speakers is not defective.

Some Helpful Recommendations

• For front speakers, put the speakers at least 2-3 feet (approx. 1 meter) away from the front and side walls.
• The distance between the two speakers should be between 6 to 10 feet (2 to 3 meters).
• The distance between your main listening chair and the distance between the two speakers should be approximately the same. They should form approximately an equilateral triangle.

• The tweeters should be about the same level as your ears when you are seated. For smaller speakers, use a stand. Slight tilting backward or forward of the speakers until the tweeters point toward your head may also work.
• You can slightly angle (toe-in) the speakers toward the listening chair. You can use a string or laser pointer to make sure both speakers are angled exactly the same. Angling the speakers toward the center of the listening position will make the sound brighter, clearer, with a sharper focus, and a more solid central image. Pointing the speakers straight forward, parallel with each other, will result in a warmer less sharply focused sound. Angling the speakers too much may have two disadvantages:
  1. It may ruin the sound stage.
  2. It will not be very effective for others who may be sitting elsewhere in the room. Don't be selfish.

Play a CD with good soundstaging and a singer in the middle.

• If the soundstage is good and wide but the center stage is blurred, move the speakers closer together.
• If the center stage is focused and sounds great, but the soundstage isn't very wide, angle the speakers away from the listening position a little at a time until the soundstage becomes wider without losing the center stage.
• Many speakers may sound better if they are pointed at your shoulders rather than directly at your head.
• Always use a string or laser pointer to make sure both speakers are angled the same way.
• Don't be afraid to experiment. Rooms are not the same and interaction with room boundaries, furniture, carpets, etc. play an important role in the sound that you hear.
• Many experts believe that in a small home theater room, you hear the room and not the speakers. It is highly recommended that you use room treatment.

[test123455]

Thanks a ton for the tips BD and BLUE! I'll make some measurements and see whats going on.

I really (really) dont feel like switching the speakers as it would be a huge PITA to do so (i'll have to physically move them which is a pain, but re-angling them and stuff is worse). I DID switch wires and it seems like it got better (pre-re-Audyssey), so either (less likely) a)the right channel is bad, or b)Audyssey just calibrated it badly so the right got screwed.

I've been trying to play test tones and stuff and it sounds better, but it will take some time to figure it out as test tones is just a static (and annoying) sound, lol.

[MrFattBill]

Originally Posted by test123455

Thanks a ton for the tips BD and BLUE! I'll make some measurements and see whats going on.

I really (really) dont feel like switching the speakers as it would be a huge PITA to do so (i'll have to physically move them which is a pain, but re-angling them and stuff is worse). I DID switch wires and it seems like it got better (pre-re-Audyssey), so either (less likely) a)the right channel is bad, or b)Audyssey just calibrated it badly so the right got screwed.

I've been trying to play test tones and stuff and it sounds better, but it will take some time to figure it out as test tones is just a static (and annoying) sound, lol.

That's where an SPL meter will come in handy. I purchased mine thinking I would only use it once, boy was I wrong

Bill

[jsr]

If youre physically closer to the left speaker or audessey set the cal wrong to fire the left speaker first, you will hear the left speaker first which sets the reference point for the sound source in your brain so it will continue to think the sound its coming from the left.
As suggested, the best thing to do is swap the speakers before trying anything else. Its apita, but that will probably give you the most troubleshooting info without having to buy an spl meter.

[test123455]

Originally Posted by jsr

If youre physically closer to the left speaker or audessey set the cal wrong to fire the left speaker first, you will hear the left speaker first which sets the reference point for the sound source in your brain so it will continue to think the sound its coming from the left.
As suggested, the best thing to do is swap the speakers before trying anything else. Its apita, but that will probably give you the most troubleshooting info without having to buy an spl meter.

Wouldnt switching the wires do the same thing basically? Also I checked using an spl meter app on my iPhone (uncalibrated, but it doesn't matter if the levels were even) and the DBs were the same.

I guess I'll do it but I'm not happy about it!

[jomari]

what you might also be listening to is the speakers interaction with the room. is one of the speakers close to the wall?

as bd has pointed out, experiment and see the results using a spl meter, and consider room treatments as an option.

[jsr]

Originally Posted by test123455

Wouldnt switching the wires do the same thing basically? Also I checked using an spl meter app on my iPhone (uncalibrated, but it doesn't matter if the levels were even) and the DBs were the same.

I guess I'll do it but I'm not happy about it!

Swapping the wires checks the amp channels. Swapping locations changes the speaker distance and room placement. Again if one speaker is closer, your brain registers that as the source of the sound and everything will sound like its coming from that speaker direction.

[test123455]

so the speakers are about the same distance from each other as they are from the couch, forming an (almost) equilateral triangle per advice from a lot of different people.

I played around with it and did some blind tests and think its fixed, but im thinking the actual issue may be the toe in angle of the speakers. theyre almost exactly the same angle though, which is why it is confusing. there are no really huge differences on either side of the room. also, i dont know why i didnt have this issue with the crapper, smaller Onkyo HTiaB speakers.

I'm thinking i may move them out a bit further and decrease the angle a bit. if you move your head just a bit to either side it sounds like that side is louder from my blind tests. here is a pic so you guys can get an idea:

[test123455]

What I changed:

1. I increased the distance from the tv another few inches each side (as far as i could go given the constraints of the room setup).
   
2. I switched the speakers.
   
3. I decreased the toe toe-in so that each back corner is within an inch and a half (its pretty damn close to straight).
   
4. I pulled the speakers forward so that they are 10.75" from the wall.
   
5. I re-checked the phase.

At this point I'm not sure what i need to do. I think the only options left are:

1. Move EVERYTHING out of the room and make it perfectly symmetrical.
   
2. Take off banana plugs and check to make sure that enough contact was made between wire and plug (although i was pretty damn sure that i did it right, since im anal),
   
3. Check my ears.
   
4. Change my receiver to see if its a bad/weak channel (is this possible?).
   
5. Maybe (though it seems it is) check to see if my center channel is perfectly straight so that its not the center channel (i guess since theres only one vs 2 its easier to get it off center).
   
6. Maybe its Audyssey?

Thoughts?! Maybe I'm just nuts lol.

[jomari]

take a gander into acoustic treatments. with all due respect, its not how symmetrical how everything is at this point, but how the room has an effect in relation to your speakers or your setup.

i'll give you a clue. listen to your center channel as is. removing the front speakers by removing one terminal from each speaker. see that glass table you have on the left side? listen again to your source material with that table about two feet in front of it.

ive mentioned this numerous times as to how a room would interact with your speakers and the importance of measuring it via an SPL meter. its probably the most overlooked aspect of a home theater. a number of people can attest to this.