Are there any available films that will utilize HDR 10+?

[toondog]

Does anyone know if any of the movies that are out now will utilize HDR 10 +?

[HeatEquation]

The current discs? No.

The current movies? Only if they are re-released to include HDR10+ at some point in the future.

HDR10+ still needs to be added to the UHD BD specs (which it probably will.)

[jibucha]

Dolby Vision :: it's only just being released

time will tell if HDR+ (HDR 10 +) even makes sense (although Samsung & Fox, seem to think so)

after all, only Dolby Vision maintains picture quality throughout post-production (does anyone understand the importance of this?) - (including display of the sets 'golden master' configuration for accurate representation)

Dolby Vision :: it will be several more months before all firmware updates are in place and movies (content) to view :: then, everyone will be making informed decisions as to whether it's 'premium picture quality' or of no interest

to be clear :: HDR & HDR+ are not tied to the 'original' grading/mastering, nor does it look the same on all displays :: complicated? (yes, to most)

[eddievanhalen]

HDR 10 looks outstanding on higher end T.V. sets with top quality displays. I have a mid-price 50'' HDR Samsung set and HDR 10 looks great but by no means it's not getting the most out of a HDR 10 video signal.
With Dolby Vision will happen the same, its specs are outstanding but its picture quality will be limited of that of the display and let's face it, not everybody as big $$$ to spend on a new top quality set.
Will Dolby Vision look better than HDR 10 on mid-price displays? That's yet to be seen...

[StingingVelvet]

How many threads are we going to have this same damn discussion in? I think the general HDR thread is fine for these DOLBYS IZ DA BEST!!! rants and their opposition in both rational and defensive forms.

[jibucha]

Dolby Vision :: unfortunately, few comprehensively understand that it is 'premium picture quality' - 'end to end' (a comprehensive "system")

important? :: we shall 'see', and soon - days from the actual beginning

yes :: picture quality is 'always' limited to the capabilities of each respective display, however, unlike HDR10 or HDR10+, the original grading/master is optimized throughout post-production, including an optimization (Golden Master) for each supported display (think calibration)

my guess? :: for those that appreciate picture quality, Dolby Vision will be the 'only way'; for others, time will tell - - - at least the waiting is finally concluding and comparisons will be available to anyone interested

one thing for certain :: Dolby Vision will present the best picture quality that a specific display is capable of, presenting the most accurate quality picture source

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

With Dolby Vision will happen the same, its specs are outstanding but its picture quality will be limited of that of the display

[jibucha]

point :: Dolby Vision is 'more than' HDR :: it's about a comprehensive system that provides the best possible picture quality

i think it unfair to 'limit it to - just HDR (seems considerable misunderstanding)

so :: why limit it to an HDR thread or metadata thread (static & dynamic)?

in time, it will become obvious that many have a lot to learn about Dolby Vision :: hopefully, as comparisons finally become pervasive, all this dialogue will simply disappear

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

How many threads are we going to have this same damn discussion in? I think the general HDR thread is fine for these DOLBYS IZ DA BEST!!! rants and their opposition in both rational and defensive forms.

[TheSweetieMan]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

HDR 10 looks outstanding on higher end T.V. sets with top quality displays. I have a mid-price 50'' HDR Samsung set and HDR 10 looks great but by no means it's not getting the most out of a HDR 10 video signal.
With Dolby Vision will happen the same, its specs are outstanding but its picture quality will be limited of that of the display and let's face it, not everybody as big $$$ to spend on a new top quality set.
Will Dolby Vision look better than HDR 10 on mid-price displays? That's yet to be seen...

HDR itself is an immediate, and legitimate, improvement over SDR, that much is for sure.

However, Dolby Vision is the 'standard' amongst content creators. It'll be a shame if it doesn't become the golden standard on the consumer market no matter how much an improvement HDR10+ is over standard HDR10. Even with the dynamic metadata, it'll be the TV manufacturer determining how that's utilized.

And, as another user pointed out, Dolby Vision isn't just about peak brightness and highlights. It's also about preserving--and presenting--the creator's intent of the overall collective image. For example, in certain HDR10 shots, you might be seeing really bright highlights, creating a nice contrast, but you could be sacrificing important detail in the same shot or sequence at the same time.

Dolby, even on sets with limited peak brightness, provided the panel has respectable tone-mapping, will still provide noticeable detail that you otherwise won't make out with HDR10, regardless of the peak brightness of the panel you're viewing it on.

[StingingVelvet]

From every professional tech article I have ever read, that's not really true. Dynamic metadata will compensate for set deficiencies, but a high-nit set with good tone mapping isn't far off at all with HDR 10. Even Dolby's presentation said dynamic metadata won't turn on if the set can tone map the image properly. That's why companies with lower nits and mapping issues (LG, Vizio) are the ones fully embracing Dolby early on.

Not saying I'm an expert mind you, I'm saying from what I have read from the experts you guys' posts tend to sound like marketing speak.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

From every professional tech article I have ever read, that's not really true. Dynamic metadata will compensate for set deficiencies, but a high-nit set with good tone mapping isn't far off at all with HDR 10. Even Dolby's presentation said dynamic metadata won't turn on if the set can tone map the image properly. That's why companies with lower nits and mapping issues (LG, Vizio) are the ones fully embracing Dolby early on.

Not saying I'm an expert mind you, I'm saying from what I have read from the experts you guys' posts tend to sound like marketing speak.

There is more to DV than dynamic metadata. That's why, of the current HDR contenders, it's the best one.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

How many threads are we going to have this same damn discussion in? I think the general HDR thread is fine for these DOLBYS IZ DA BEST!!! rants and their opposition in both rational and defensive forms.

I agree with this. In fact my very first HDR discussion post I moved from the Unforgiven thread to the HDR thread. The reason I like this is not only does it keep the other threads more on topic, it keeps all the information in a single thread so it is much easier to keep informed. In my opinion the leaders of the forum must set the example.

My proposal, make a public pledge to make this happen. You could start a thread to post these pledges or we could just use this thread. What do you think?

I will start.

Staying Salty pledges to continue any technical HDR posts in the HDR thread.

[StingingVelvet]

Haha you don't have to pledge anything, and I was probably being salty before. I'm just saying we have a lot of discussion that would probably be best in the main HDR thread. That's what that thread exists for, these types of arguments.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

From every professional tech article I have ever read, that's not really true. Dynamic metadata will compensate for set deficiencies, but a high-nit set with good tone mapping isn't far off at all with HDR 10. Even Dolby's presentation said dynamic metadata won't turn on if the set can tone map the image properly. That's why companies with lower nits and mapping issues (LG, Vizio) are the ones fully embracing Dolby early on.

Not saying I'm an expert mind you, I'm saying from what I have read from the experts you guys' posts tend to sound like marketing speak.

Scene by scene grading is different than a blanket grade that static offers. This benefits the entire movie not just lower end TVs. However the lower end TV part is still true. It's just not the only benefit.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Scene by scene grading is different than a blanket grade that static offers. This benefits the entire movie not just lower end TVs. However the lower end TV part is still true. It's just not the only benefit.

HDR10 is also graded scene by scene in the mastering process.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan

HDR itself is an immediate, and legitimate, improvement over SDR, that much is for sure.

However, Dolby Vision is the 'standard' amongst content creators. It'll be a shame if it doesn't become the golden standard on the consumer market no matter how much an improvement HDR10+ is over standard HDR10. Even with the dynamic metadata, it'll be the TV manufacturer determining how that's utilized.

And, as another user pointed out, Dolby Vision isn't just about peak brightness and highlights. It's also about preserving--and presenting--the creator's intent of the overall collective image. For example, in certain HDR10 shots, you might be seeing really bright highlights, creating a nice contrast, but you could be sacrificing important detail in the same shot or sequence at the same time.

Dolby, even on sets with limited peak brightness, provided the panel has respectable tone-mapping, will still provide noticeable detail that you otherwise won't make out with HDR10, regardless of the peak brightness of the panel you're viewing it on.

You will be getting a compromised HDR image on sets with limited peak brightness, the only difference that with DV the highlights won't be clipped but rather just won't be as bright as what they would be on a higher nit set.

But with a higher nit set you will be getting the highlights as intended, especially if the set has respectable tone mapping and is calibrated correctly.

I would much rather view an HDR movie on a higher nit set than a DV movie on lower nit display. Too many people assume you don't get the image as intended on HDR10 but that's not necessarily true.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by bruceames

You will be getting a compromised HDR image on sets with limited peak brightness, the only difference that with DV the highlights won't be clipped but rather just won't be as bright as what they would be on a higher nit set.

But with a higher nit set you will be getting the highlights as intended, especially if the set has respectable tone mapping and is calibrated correctly.

I would much rather view an HDR movie on a higher nit set than a DV movie on lower nit display. Too many people assume you don't get the image as intended on HDR10 but that's not necessarily true.

That's the key. Technically, DV is the "superior" format, but most TVs with DV have some significant limitations when it comes to peak brightness, so the experience on those sets won't be noticeable better than what you'll see in HDR10 on a high powered TV. The exception is the Sony Z9.

[TheSweetieMan]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

From every professional tech article I have ever read, that's not really true. Dynamic metadata will compensate for set deficiencies, but a high-nit set with good tone mapping isn't far off at all with HDR 10. Even Dolby's presentation said dynamic metadata won't turn on if the set can tone map the image properly. That's why companies with lower nits and mapping issues (LG, Vizio) are the ones fully embracing Dolby early on.

Not saying I'm an expert mind you, I'm saying from what I have read from the experts you guys' posts tend to sound like marketing speak.

I don't know what articles you're reading. But I go based on what Dolby actually says--and the 40+ filmmakers and content creators that vouch for their version of HDR: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/filmmake...les/index.html

That link also has more validity to it than any "tech expert" website that exists.

Also, keep in mind, even with HDR10+, the dynamic metadata will be determined by the panel manufacturer, therefore not preserving the actual image the content creator wants you to see.

Originally Posted by bruceames

HDR10 is also graded scene by scene in the mastering process.

By whom? And with what tools?

At least with Dolby, the content creator has an official standard to use. And with most films receiving Dolby Vision treatment, they'll be able to preserve the image that was basically presented in the Dolby Cinema format.

Originally Posted by bruceames

You will be getting a compromised HDR image on sets with limited peak brightness, the only difference that with DV the highlights won't be clipped but rather just won't be as bright as what they would be on a higher nit set.

But with a higher nit set you will be getting the highlights as intended, especially if the set has respectable tone mapping and is calibrated correctly.

I would much rather view an HDR movie on a higher nit set than a DV movie on lower nit display. Too many people assume you don't get the image as intended on HDR10 but that's not necessarily true.

And this is where your understanding of HDR is exclusively focused on peak brightness and highlights.

I've stated before than dynamic range content is not exclusively married to peak brightness. HDR10 still sacrifices detail in specific frames that the content creator wants you to see.

Which brings me to this post below, which I will tie into yours...

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

That's the key. Technically, DV is the "superior" format, but most TVs with DV have some significant limitations when it comes to peak brightness, so the experience on those sets won't be noticeable better than what you'll see in HDR10 on a high powered TV. The exception is the Sony Z9.

It's so premature to even be talking about peak brightness on current consumer panels, considering not even the highest-end LCD set can consistently hit what HDR itself requires in terms of full peak brightness. There's a reason why tone-mapping serves as a respectable counter measure to clipping and other unwanted artifacts this early in the HDR format "war".

And even though I may sound like a broken record, Dolby Vision is the standard that content creators want. It's an official theatrical experience. Why would they want anything else?

If HDR10 could be as good as Dolby Vision, then why are studios voluntarily paying royalties to use it and distribute it?

And now that Dolby Vision is a proprietary format, what R&D is going to go into HDR10 going forward? They won't be able to crib it together the way they did in the past while Dolby had it as an open source.

Dolby is doing so much behind the scenes with their high dynamic range format, that HDR10 won't be able to keep up.

The worst thing that can happen to consumer panels, is people making misinformed decisions to 'settle' on a format, mainly because they either didn't have the funds to afford something better--or because they didn't have the patience to experience the superior HDR format.

[jibucha]

i appreciate this information :: although i have only casually done an overview, this appears to be a source of a wealth of relevant information :: thank you

Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan

I don't know what articles you're reading. But I go based on what Dolby actually says--and the 40+ filmmakers and content creators that vouch for their version of HDR: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/filmmake...les/index.html

[jibucha]

again :: well done :: you're obviously someone that's done his homework, which i sincerely appreciate

soon though :: much of the confusion will pass as Dolby Vision (4K Ultra HD Blu-ray players and televisions), including discs/movies (content) become available, beginning in a few days - it will be interesting, what the dialogue will then become

Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan

Also, keep in mind, even with HDR10+, the dynamic metadata will be determined by the panel manufacturer, therefore not preserving the actual image the content creator wants you to see.

By whom? And with what tools?

At least with Dolby, the content creator has an official standard to use. And with most films receiving Dolby Vision treatment, they'll be able to preserve the image that was basically presented in the Dolby Cinema format.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan

It's so premature to even be talking about peak brightness on current consumer panels, considering not even the highest-end LCD set can consistently hit what HDR itself requires in terms of full peak brightness. There's a reason why tone-mapping serves as a respectable counter measure to clipping and other unwanted artifacts this early in the HDR format "war".

And even though I may sound like a broken record, Dolby Vision is the standard that content creators want. It's an official theatrical experience. Why would they want anything else?

If HDR10 could be as good as Dolby Vision, then why are studios voluntarily paying royalties to use it and distribute it?

And now that Dolby Vision is a proprietary format, what R&D is going to go into HDR10 going forward? They won't be able to crib it together the way they did in the past while Dolby had it as an open source.

Dolby is doing so much behind the scenes with their high dynamic range format, that HDR10 won't be able to keep up.

The worst thing that can happen to consumer panels, is people making misinformed decisions to 'settle' on a format, mainly because they either didn't have the funds to afford something better--or because they didn't have the patience to experience the superior HDR format.

It's not premature at all. The higher the peak brightness, the less tone mapping the TV needs to do. Also, a lot of these TVs that can hit a high peak brightness happen to have great tone mapping that can resolve detail up to 4000-6000 nits. Meanwhile, most of the TVs that have sub 800 nits also have very poor tone mapping, and thus desperately need dynamic metadata for HDR.

The only TV on which I'm interested in seeing whether or not it makes any significant difference is the Sony ZD9. Luckily, we have a few people on here with that TV.