The Guardian: Composer John Williams says he 'never liked film music very much'

[dancerslegs]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...usic-very-much

“I never liked film music very much,” he confessed in a rare interview for a forthcoming biography.

He added: “Film music, however good it can be – and it usually isn’t, other than maybe an eight-minute stretch here and there … I just think the music isn’t there. That, what we think of as this precious great film music is … we’re remembering it in some kind of nostalgic way …

Just the idea that film music has the same place in the concert hall as the best music in the canon is a mistaken notion, I think.”

A bitter pill, perhaps, for some folks, but he's absolutely right.

[PhysicalMediaMaestro]

I can see why he doesn't like the film music other composers make, but I like the film music he makes. A lot. So do many other people.

[Karate_Bullfrog]

Originally Posted by dancerslegs

but he's absolutely right.

Why exactly? Can you break it down?

To me, so far it’s an opinion. There is no wrong, or right answer. It’s all about preference.

[dancerslegs]

Originally Posted by Karate_Bullfrog

Why exactly? Can you break it down?

To me, so far it’s an opinion. There is no wrong, or right answer. It’s all about preference.

The film music idiom simply lacks the complexity, unity, and inspiration of the great concert hall works. There's a reason why, at least in capitalist countries, the most highly-respected concert hall artists since the dawn of cinema (not just John Williams) have generally held film work in relatively modest esteem and resorted to it chiefly for financial reasons.

Williams' own Symphony No. 1, which received a single concert hall performance before he suppressed it, was such a critical disaster at its 1968 debut, it's what forced him to start relying on film work to make a living.

[Karate_Bullfrog]

Originally Posted by dancerslegs

The film music idiom simply lacks the complexity, unity, and inspiration of the great concert hall works. There's a reason why, at least in capitalist countries, the most highly-respected concert hall artists since the dawn of cinema (not just John Williams) have generally held film work in relatively modest esteem and resorted to it chiefly for financial reasons.

Williams' own Symphony No. 1, which received a single concert hall performance before he suppressed it, was such a critical disaster at its 1968 debut, it's what forced him to start relying on film work to make a living.

Break it down further. Especially the complexity of such work when you compare it to other music works, and not just film music.

Because the idea that if the music can’t be played in a concert hall, it somehow makes the music less, is a snobbish opinion, from my point of view.

[dancerslegs]

Originally Posted by Karate_Bullfrog

Break it down further. Especially the complexity of such work when you compare it to other music works, and not just film music.

Because the idea that if the music can’t be played in a concert hall, it somehow makes the music less, is a snobbish opinion, from my point of view.

Complexity can be a difficult concept to get across to folks not well-schooled in the idiom, perhaps especially in a medium as abstract as music.

This video analysis of the finale of Mozart's "Jupiter" Symphony--as well as many others I could post from this channel--is perhaps a good example of the level of sophistication and intricacy some of the great concert hall staple works can attain that you practically won't find anywhere in film music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTxYykhQZbI

[Karate_Bullfrog]

Originally Posted by dancerslegs

Complexity can be a difficult concept to get across to folks not well-schooled in the idiom, perhaps especially in a medium as abstract as music.

lol… Okay.

But he’s not “right”. It’s just an opinion. It’s his opinion(Maybe… Just maybe it’s yours too), but he’s not “right”.

[starmike]

He’s not right. My vast soundtrack collection says so. Just because HE says it doesn’t mean it’s true for people that actively listen to it.

[John1701D]

That's a strange take from him. Film music has been my favorite my whole life.

[CWCprime]

I get where he is coming from in the sense that film music is made to accompany the scene. It's not really meant to stand on its own. A musical sequence in a film can change, sometimes spontaneously, to compliment the moments that work well in the film, but if someone who has never seen the movie or knew that it was a composed for film, it doesn't really follow classic music conventions. Although great film scores can and often do stand on their own regardless.

[moreorless]

Originally Posted by CWCprime

I get where he is coming from in the sense that film music is made to accompany the scene. It's not really meant to stand on its own. A musical sequence in a film can change, sometimes spontaneously, to compliment the moments that work well in the film, but if someone who has never seen the movie or knew that it was a composed for film, it doesn't really follow classic music conventions. Although great film scores can and often do stand on their own regardless.

Thats true with some soundtrack work but definitely not all and tends not to be as much the case with really iconic pieces when often you'll get scenes edited to match the music not the reverse.

I'm no musical expert but a big issue surely is what kind of classical music your comparing modern soundtracks do? obviously there is a good deal of difference involved but rather than Mozart I would say that a lot of modern(last 50 years or so) orchestial soundtracks tend to be more akin to Neo Romantic music.

Its why you get some much of the latter ending up being used in films...

Samuel Barber - Adagio for Strings - YouTube

I'm guessing that piece would be considered less complex in some ways than the Mozart one presented but as a layman I would describe its strength as being taking an iconic theme and presenting it in a very subtle fashion focused strongly on building atmosphere.

[MWF6425]

As much as I like some classical music, I think some people elevate it to an almost godlike status too much...just as extremely rabid film fans do with Mr. Williams' own work. While I respect past composers like Beethoven and Bach, I don't have nearly as much an emotional connection to what they created, simply because I wasn't alive in their time. By comparison, Mr. Williams has done music for so many films I truly enjoy - Star Wars, Superman, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter, Home Alone, Hook, and the 1995 Sabrina remake. I'm not a huge Indiana Jones fan, but I do think the music from that series is great as well.

[mwynn]

Posted in this thread with an updated from the biographer.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...=john+williams

[dancerslegs]

Originally Posted by mwynn

Posted in this thread with an updated from the biographer.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...=john+williams

Now, beyond the matter of logistics, Williams admittedly spoke often with me about the inherent limitations and weaknesses of film music as an art form, especially in relation to the great classical repertoire. Film music, he says, has to be in a simpler language, more economical, less distracting. It’s meant to go under dialogue and sound effects. It’s subservient to the needs of the movie, of the editor’s splices, of the director’s engineering and overall vision. Whereas music written purely for the concert hall is the main attraction — moving at its own pace and designed to be technically impressive, dazzling, complex, or just beautiful for beauty’s sake.

Yep, essentially what I was saying above.

[slumcat]

He was talking about Hans Zimmer.

[Martoto]

Williams is right. Comparing film music to music written for the concert is silly.

[Martoto]

A huge chunk of late 20th century film music (orchestral) is essentially "highlights" from Mahler, Mendelssohn, Debussy, Wagner, Liszt, Prokofiev and a couple of others.