Improving turntable sound quality with AV receiver

[StartWars]

I recently bought a Project Primary E turntable, which is connected to a Project Phono Box MM, a Pioneer SX-323 AV receiver, Tannoy TFX 5.1 speakers, and a BK Gemini subwoofer.

I've noticed that heavier sections of some records sound a very muffled. Are there any tweaks I can make to my current setup to improve sound quality? I usually keep the AV receiver in auto surround mode but use stereo mode when playing record.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by StartWars

I recently bought a Project Primary E turntable, which is connected to a Project Phono Box MM, a Pioneer SX-323 AV receiver, Tannoy TFX 5.1 speakers, and a BK Gemini subwoofer.

I've noticed that heavier sections of some records sound a very muffled. Are there any tweaks I can make to my current setup to improve sound quality? I usually keep the AV receiver in auto surround mode but use stereo mode when playing record.

Turntables can be very temperamental for sure as the analog signal path can have you chasing gremlins. When you say heavier sections, do you mean louder? More bottom end? Also curious where the turntable is placed in your system.

[StartWars]

Heavier sections as in when the music has more layers in a chorus for example. A section with acoustics and vocals sound crisp but then a chorus with more instruments and layers sounds flat and muffled. My turntable is positioned on a shelf near my AV receiver but I don't have a lot of room to work with.

[gotmule]

I don’t think it is your receiver where the issue lies, but more with the turntable itself. It could be the set up of the tone arm, the cartridge, or even vibrations from the shelf it is placed on as those can play havoc on sound quality if the turntable is not on a stable surface. I am guessing other sources don’t have the issue so start focusing on the turntable.

[StartWars]

I must admit I haven't adjusted anything on the turntable yet as I'm unsure where to start. Also thought the model I bought was designed for plug in and play with minimal adjustments. What would you recommend I try adjusting on the turntable first?

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by StartWars

I must admit I haven't adjusted anything on the turntable yet as I'm unsure where to start. Also thought the model I bought was designed for plug in and play with minimal adjustments. What would you recommend I try adjusting on the turntable first?

Biggest adjustment would be the tone arm counterweight. The manual should have some directions on how to do this to make sure it is set right, plus also steps to make sure the cartridge is mounted correctly. Project customer support should be able to walk you through this. I would check your shelf that the deck is placed on to rule that out also. Play a cd at a decent volume and put your hand on the shelf to see if it is vibrating. If it is, there is a chance that could be contributing as well. I would also reach out to Project to see what they think.

[Hitman Horton]

Originally Posted by StartWars

I must admit I haven't adjusted anything on the turntable yet as I'm unsure where to start. Also thought the model I bought was designed for plug in and play with minimal adjustments. What would you recommend I try adjusting on the turntable first?

You are correct. That particular turntable is set up at the factory so there aren't any adjustments necessary. I have the same turntable. Mine is just the older version without the "E" designation. Mine works well with no issues. Try playing several different recordings and see if it happens in all of them. The problem could be a worn out record.

[StartWars]

It's more noticeable on some records more than others, but seems to be a recurring problem in sections with more layers. All my records are also brand new. When watching films in surround sound, there are no quality issues.

[Hitman Horton]

Originally Posted by StartWars

It's more noticeable on some records more than others, but seems to be a recurring problem in sections with more layers. All my records are also brand new. When watching films in surround sound, there are no quality issues.

Try a record in surround mode and see how it sounds.

[donzo29]

Hi there,

Not trying to derail the conversation here but a thought occurred to me regarding your turntable situation. Just going by the symptoms you are describing about the sound it may be that the records you are having the issue with are from highly compressed masters. I have no idea what you are listening too so I may be way off here but compression can make the louder, fuller sections of music sound flat and lifeless.

Just throwing that possibility out there before you start messing with your turntable set-up.

[StartWars]

Originally Posted by Hitman Horton

Try a record in surround mode and see how it sounds.

It sounds exactly the same in auto surround mode but still only plays through the two front speakers.

If it helps, one of the worst sounding records I've noticed this issue with is the new Feeder album "Tallulah". Sound is very flat and muffled during the choruses. It sounded better listening to it on Spotify on my PC.

[slaizer2000]

if your receiver has a pure audio mode I'd try that just to make sure receiver isn't altering something.

[StartWars]

Yes it does. It has "direct" and "pure direct" modes as well as "auto surround" and "stereo".

[donzo29]

Originally Posted by StartWars

It sounds exactly the same in auto surround mode but still only plays through the two front speakers.

If it helps, one of the worst sounding records I've noticed this issue with is the new Feeder album "Tallulah". Sound is very flat and muffled during the choruses. It sounded better listening to it on Spotify on my PC.

I am not sure about the dynamics on the Vinyl mastering but the CD for that album is horribly compressed. I don't know for sure but I would suspect that at least some of that compression was also applied to the vinyl master.
What are some other records that sound bad for you?

[StartWars]

Shouldn't it at least sound better than hearing it on Spotify with cheaper PC speakers?

I also recently got Alter Bridge Walk The Sky which sounds flat in some sections. I thought it might just be the genre of music but Metallica's most recent album sounded noticeably better despite being heavier.

[donzo29]

Originally Posted by StartWars

Shouldn't it at least sound better than hearing it on Spotify with cheaper PC speakers?

I also recently got Alter Bridge Walk The Sky which sounds flat in some sections. I thought it might just be the genre of music but Metallica's most recent album sounded noticeably better despite being heavier.

You are right that it should sound better but higher end equipment often makes the shortfalls of the source more readily apparent.

The Alter Bridge Album (according to http://dr.loudness-war.info/) has less compression and what looks like better dynamic range than Tallulah on vinyl but I can't tell you for sure as I have not heard it.

Since I am not there you can take all this with a grain of salt but if some of your records sound fine and some others of similar genres don't, I would suspect the source and not the gear. Trust your ears.

Even vinyl is not immune to compression and bad mastering.

[Hitman Horton]

Originally Posted by StartWars

Shouldn't it at least sound better than hearing it on Spotify with cheaper PC speakers?

I also recently got Alter Bridge Walk The Sky which sounds flat in some sections. I thought it might just be the genre of music but Metallica's most recent album sounded noticeably better despite being heavier.

I'm not familiar with the music you're listening to or your equipment (other than the turntable.) My last recommendations would be to listen to a CD if you have any in stereo and see what happens. If that sounds fine, check all of your connections to make sure none are loose. If those are fine, try using a different input on your receiver. If that doesn't work, time to read the manuals and see what information you can get from there.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by StartWars

It's more noticeable on some records more than others, but seems to be a recurring problem in sections with more layers. All my records are also brand new. When watching films in surround sound, there are no quality issues.

I would guess that the issue is the cartridge and stylus. Either it's not high enough quality or it's misaligned.

I had a problem a few years ago when I wore out the last of my styli for the Stanton 681EEE cartridge. I ordered new styli and they sounded like crap. It turned out that Stanton changed the manufacturing process and the replacement styli weren't really elliptical and tracked badly which caused distortion. I wound up having to buy a different cartridge - an Ortofon Blue. It sounds great, but it does really poorly with any static.

But if it's not that, it just might be that you're hearing the limitations of vinyl, of which there are many. Back in the 60s and 70s, all audiophiles did was complain about the poor quality of U.S. pressing plants. Today's new vinyl is generally far better, but there are some negative aspects of vinyl that won't go away. For example, it's harder to track the inner grooves because of the smaller diameter. In addition, the linear velocity is greater at the outside of the record which means the fidelity is better in the first tracks of each side.

It's also possible that the particular records you have are cut badly or pressed badly. Everyone loves their 180 gram modern pressings, but at an AES meeting I attended a few years back, the engineers working with vinyl said there were vinyl fill problems on the presses with thick biscuits and they preferred less thick biscuits. (Think of it like a waffle iron). In addition, there are people out there who don't know how to cut a record properly.

When CD first came about, many of the early CDs sounded badly for a number of reasons, but one was that the engineers were mastering them as if they were vinyl. Today, it's the opposite problem: many vinyl records are mastered as if they were LP's, in fact, many of the labels won't pay for a separate vinyl master.

[cochon]

1)First of all I would use your receiver in direct mode to stop the receiver from adding any processing.

2)I am not familiar with the album you refer to but I am very familiar with vinyl from different countries and eras. Unfortunately many new vinyl pressings are terribly compressed or they were produced involving at some stage some very primitive digital technology.

3) After the quality of the record, the next in line is the cartridge, if your cartridge is no good it will downgrade your sound no matter how good the pressing is.

4) For last the Project phono preamps at least to me sound dull.

Any of those points alone or combined are in my opinion the likely cause of your disappointment but probably a bad pressing will takes the highest percentage of the blame. I have a few new records myself that I will never consider playing again and others that are OK but they are hardly a great enjoyment.

Also, keep your cables short, some people run 3m cables from the TT to the amp, that is a very bad idea.

[StartWars]

Does the cable length make that much of a difference? Admittedly I've been using 3m long cables to connect the phono box to my AV receiver but a shorter cable is used to connect the turntable to the phono box.