Joker Spoiler/Theories Thread

[CyberpunkCentral]

Did Fleck imagine all that stuff up after he stop taking his meds? Did he ever truly meet Thomas Wayne? Were some of the characters ever real? Share us your thoughts and theories down below.

[Hazel Motes]

Thomas Wayne really did have an affair with Penny Fleck. Then, to cover it up he used his power and influence to systematically destroy her life, get her institutionalized, and drive her to the point of actual insanity.

She never changed her story. Batman and the Joker are brothers. Thomas Wayne is the real villain

[Zombo]

The entire film gives you a dose of doubt throughout...keeps you guessing what's in his mind and what isn't. It's actually brilliant for a film based on this particular character.

The relationship with the neighbor was definitely all in his head with the exception of the elevator sequence, following her and the final confrontation in her apartment.

The whole 7 shots in the subway makes you wonder if all the shots were real, just some of them...or any of them.

The final hospital scene with the case worker that " looks like " the case worker from earlier in the film makes you wonder if any of it was true or not.

Personally, I think that the majority of the film did happen ( although maybe not exactly how Arthur perceived it to happen ) and the hospital sequence in the end was where he ended up after the riots. Only now...he's embraced who he really is and awaiting the opportunity to get out.

He now has a real world reason to hate Bruce. Bruce was given the best life by Thomas Wayne, while in Joker's mind....Arthur was banished and forced to live in poverty with a mother driven crazy by Wayne's cover-up and lied to him.

[drush9999]

My theory:

Joaquin Phoenix is not "The Joker", hence the title "Joker" without the definite article

[EvaDK]

"For my whole life, I didn't know if I really existed. But I do and people are starting to notice."

The whole film summarized in one quote.

[joshsquash729]

I never really doubted that any of it happened, though parts could perhaps be a little over-aggrandized due to his mentally unstable nature. I think Thomas did have an affair and covered it all up, which is an interesting take to the Waynes that I kinda dig. That said, I do also think he was abused by his mom's boyfriends, which is probably what put him into the mental hospital in the first place. I do think he killed his neighbor, or else those sirens we heard would be coming for him. Never noticed the 7 shot thing, but I may just chalk that up to a movie mistake, if anything. I think they may have played that aspect up more if they wanted it to be part of his psyche.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by drush9999

My theory:

Joaquin Phoenix is not "The Joker", hence the title "Joker" without the definite article

My theory is this:

The Real Joker from the Batman films(Nolans are the only ones that matter) has NO backstory and was never intended to have one. Why they have to go and try to *splain* everything with concocted backstories just sucks. Its better to NOT know. Giving the Joker an origin kills his intrigue and negates Alfreds comments about how some people just want to "watch the world burn".

Oh well. Too late now.

[kylor]

I felt like the movie intentionally threw me for a loop since at the beginning it briefly flashed Arthur being in Arkham Asylum previously. Yet when Arthur visited the place to get the records of his mother, the guy didn't recognize him, and he had to ask how someone got in there?

Why would he need to ask how someone got in there, if he had already gotten in there before?

This is why my theory is that the whole backstory was indeed in his head within Arkham Asylum. I think he was replaying it all in his head but to the woman interviewing him in Arkham Asylum, it just looked like he was staring into space and laughing.

I could well be wrong but, there's a discrepancy in the writing when he asks how someone gets into Arkham Asylum since the movie shows at the start that he's been there before.

[Creed]

I think it's mostly real, while I also think that Fleck spared Sophie's life.

Thomas having an affair with Penny is definitely likely, IMO.

[ronboster]

As far as what's real or imagined by Arthur:

Two scenes I think were imagined were the scene with his mother (pillow) at her bedside. Several details stood out. He was smoking in the her hospital room (remember the earlier scene of him being approached by the cops for questioning). Arthur was outside the hospital smoking (the viewer it lead to believe he had to go outside to smoke). The fact no one came in to tell him to stop smoking stood out to me. Second point when he smothers her, we don't hear the monitor's alarm going off to designate her heart stopped, yet the audience is to believe he killed her. Last point, he turns to the light from the window shining on him....no code red from nurses, techs or doctors while he looks out the window and basks in the sun light.

Second scene also involved both bright lights from the room and the glow of sunlight streaming in the windows: The final scene with psychologist in the asylum and the subsequent walk down the hall and (key stone cop-ish) chase by the orderly. Was the asylum ever shown as so clean and so white in previous scenes and the glow of the sunlight streaming through the windows, all suggest what we are seeing is not real.

I'd have to see the film again to know if there were other scenes where strong sunlight was a dominate characteristic in the scene.

Feel free to correct me, if any of my details (from memory of seeing just one time) are incorrect).

Ron

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

My theory is this:

The Real Joker from the Batman films(Nolans are the only ones that matter) has NO backstory and was never intended to have one. Why they have to go and try to *splain* everything with concocted backstories just sucks. Its better to NOT know. Giving the Joker an origin kills his intrigue and negates Alfreds comments about how some people just want to "watch the world burn".

Oh well. Too late now.

That was one interpretation. There is space for others. This was the best film of the year so far for me and I loved TDK.

[edge]

I feel that if it were all made up, then it would negate his whole arch and render the movie pointless. It is touted as a character study, and how said character could devolve into Joker.

The impact is so much larger if it were not all made up. Some parts sure, but the whole arch?

If it were all made up, then can he really be Joker at all? Doesn't make sense.

Just title the film as: Joker?

[Chaotic]

I don't think he killed Sophie. I think the woman at the end was the first victim that didn't harm or make fun of him.

[EvaDK]

Originally Posted by edge

I feel that if it were all made up, then it would negate his whole arch and render the movie pointless.

^^^^

It is the most lazy storytelling trick known in storytelling.

[Creed]

Originally Posted by EvaDK

^^^^

It is the most lazy storytelling trick known in storytelling.

Oh, the it's all a dream cliche.

[FreddyC]

Obviously, there are spots in the film that were his delusions and the ending made me take pause and consider that all of it was delusion.

One of the thoughts that jumped into my head that it's all delusion and he is merely adopting the Batman and Joker story as being his life. I think that is negated by the delusion of being on the tv show or having a relationship with the neighbor.

After sitting with it for awhile, I think he is A Joker, if not THE Joker that will eventually be Batman's nemesis. May be way off, but I'm anxious to see the film again to keep on parsing it out.

All that aside, I loved the movie. Very dark....felt like a marriage of Taxi Driver and King of Comedy. It doesn't even try to cloak those influences, which I'm OK with. If you are going to lift, lift from someone like Scorsese!

[DarkEco910]

Originally Posted by drush9999

My theory:

Joaquin Phoenix is not "The Joker", hence the title "Joker" without the definite article

This. My theory is that it could still tie into the DCEU somehow (or perhaps The Batman) in that Fleck instigated the riots that would give birth to the actual The Joker whilst he himself remains institutionalized.

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by ronboster

As far as what's real or imagined by Arthur:

Two scenes I think were imagined were the scene with his mother (pillow) at her bedside. Several details stood out. He was smoking in the her hospital room (remember the earlier scene of him being approached by the cops for questioning). Arthur was outside the hospital smoking (the viewer it lead to believe he had to go outside to smoke). The fact no one came in to tell him to stop smoking stood out to me.

This movie was set when smoking in hospitals, planes, anywhere really, was still acceptable practice.

In total, I liked this movie, however I don't think it's as deep as it some people want it to be. The Thomas Wayne angle I thought was pretty heavy-handedly explained as real (Wayne's version, where Penny is crazy) by the hospital scene where Arthur reviews her records and learns about her hallucinations. It gives you a concrete piece of evidence to support that version of the story. Also, it provides even more reason for Arthur to feel like he's nothing, as his mother subjected him to abuse over a situation that wasn't real in the first place, thus subjecting him to the trauma that gives him his laughing condition and overall mental issues.

[Zero_Cool]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

My theory is this:

The Real Joker from the Batman films(Nolans are the only ones that matter) has NO backstory and was never intended to have one. Why they have to go and try to *splain* everything with concocted backstories just sucks. Its better to NOT know. Giving the Joker an origin kills his intrigue and negates Alfreds comments about how some people just want to "watch the world burn".

Oh well. Too late now.

You’re acting like Nolan’s films and Joker are in the same universe.

[StarWarsIsAwesome123]

Could this film be setting up Robert Pattinson's Batman? I mean, he can't be in the DCEU for obvious reasons.