4K UHD: Fewer subtitles than on regular Blu-ray? Why?

[Fjodor2000]

Hi,

Based on my observations, it seems like 4K UHD Blu-ray releases often have subtitles in fewer languages than regular Blu-ray releases. Some even don't have regular English subtitles, instead only English SDH or none at all.

Now I just wonder if there is any logic to this? If anything the UHD Blu-rays ought to have room for more subtitles.

Personally, I find this highly annoying. It has put me off buying several UHD Blu-ray releases.

So is there any logic to this? Not having a wide selection of subtitles on the UHD Blu-ray discs likely means less sales in a lot of countries. Is it really that expensive to add more subtitles? Why not just add the subtitles from the existing Blu-ray discs to the UHD Blu-ray discs? Is that more expensive than the effect of having less UHD Blu-rays sold in a lot of countries? Seems strange to me.

[Alister_M]

Depends on the company and which territory they're intended for. The ones authored for US distribution generally only have English and Spanish like most US BDs, while European equivalents will usually have a ton of sub and dub options. Hence why a lot of WB's discs are BD-66 in the US and BD-100 elsewhere.

[professorwho]

It depends on a few factors, but I think the major one is licensing. What countries does the studio releasing the UHD have rights to distribute in? If it's only a few, why include more than necessary? In fact, often times, a distributor has to get permission to use a translation or dub of any property for home video by asking for it specifically- it may not be automatically passed onto the licensee. Some companies (typically Japanese ones) often won't allow subtitles of their native language be added to an international release, as it may produce competition to their domestic release.

Also, I'm not aware if subtitles can be locked- as in, can't be turned off. Sometimes a rights holder will request locked subtitles to avoid "reverse-importation".

[-shadow-]

Most releases I have bought here in The Netherlands and from the UK have a ton of subtitles, often even ones that aren't on the included blu-ray. Not all of course, but most do.

[PoorSignal]

I found that in general they include more subtitles, like chinese, japanese, korean, thai etc. Since the format is region free it makes sense to have one disc to go around (distribution rights aside)

[shinobipopcorn]

Has to be for market restriction. There are no region schemes so they must restrict the licenses for translations as a trade off. Kind of like how a lot of US discs have secret Japanese but you have to have your machines set to the language in order to access it. (A pain in the butt if you're trying to use your discs for listening practice...)

[Fjodor2000]

Well, the problem is that in many cases for 4K UHD Blu-rays, there are no release variants available that contain the subtitles that are present on the corresponding regular Blu-rays. I.e. neither on the UK or US releases of the 4K UHD Blu-rays. So it's not just that it's divided per region.

Just to list a few:

* Apocalypse Now, Final Cut
* Lone Survivor
* Deer Hunter
* American Psycho
* Leon
* The Doors
* etc

For all of those, both the UK and US 4K UHD releases have much more limited selection of subtitles (e.g. some even only have English SDH and/or English) than the corresponding regular Blu-ray releases. And it's quite major movies - not niche ones.

So I don't get it. Why not just add the subtitles already available on the Blu-ray releases to the 4K UHD Blu-ray releases as well? At least e.g. European subtitles ought to be added to the UK releases, which are supposed to cover the European region.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Fjodor2000

Well, the problem is that in many cases for 4K UHD Blu-rays, there are no release variants available that contain the subtitles that are present on the corresponding regular Blu-rays. I.e. neither on the UK or US releases of the 4K UHD Blu-rays. So it's not just that it's divided per region.

Just to list a few:

* Apocalypse Now, Final Cut
* Lone Survivor
* Deer Hunter
* American Psycho
* Leon
* The Doors
* etc

For all of those, both the UK and US 4K UHD releases have much more limited selection of subtitles (e.g. some even only have English SDH and/or English) than the corresponding regular Blu-ray releases. And it's quite major movies - not niche ones.

So I don't get it. Why not just add the subtitles already available on the Blu-ray releases to the 4K UHD Blu-ray releases as well? At least e.g. European subtitles ought to be added to the UK releases, which are supposed to cover the European region.

With the exception of Lone Survivor every one of those discs you mention does NOT have worldwide distribution rights by its owner. Sony only released Leon UHD in North America. Deer Hunter UHD has only been released in France and the UK by StudioCanal. Doors is owned by StudioCanal but it's not distributed by StudioCanal in every country so they only made a disc for English, French and German consumption, US version released by Lionsgate who have a distribution deal with SC. American Psycho and Apocalypse Now were released by Lionsgate who have limited worldwide rights to those films. StudioCanal cloned the Lionsgate discs for the UK release of Apocalypse Now but will be doing their own version for Germany.

But if you look at most UHDs from Warners, Fox, Sony, Universal and Paramount (with the occasional US-only disc as Alister mentioned up top) then they're groaning with extra languages because they have the rights to release the film in all those different territories. It doesn't matter if it's what you deem to be a "major movie", it all depends on who is distributing it. Deer Hunter is a fair example of your complaint in action, the previous SC Blu had Spanish, German and Italian language options but it appears that the rights situation has become a little more complicated, e.g. Eagle Pictures now distributes SC product in Italy and so they've done their own local UHD version.

If you care to check the relevant US/UK Blu-rays for most of those films listed you'll find much the same story: a hodge podge of different distributors all over the world and so they're mastering them with the express intent of releasing them in select markets only, and this remains in place with UHD, even with UHD's innate lack of region coding: they're not going to spend more money securing more language tracks/subtitles when it's not their remit to do so. 'Twas ever thus.

[HD Goofnut]

You get used to it. All of the major North American studios use English, Spanish, and French audio/subs for their disc releases. The exception is Lionsgate as they use only English and Spanish. Now, when when you get into the smaller labels is when it becomes a crap shoot. If a major studio has right in multiple regions then will usually have more subtitles and have the same disc with small tweaks in the menu.

[Fjodor2000]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

With the exception of Lone Survivor every one of those discs you mention does NOT have worldwide distribution rights by its owner. Sony only released Leon UHD in North America. Deer Hunter UHD has only been released in France and the UK by StudioCanal. Doors is owned by StudioCanal but it's not distributed by StudioCanal in every country so they only made a disc for English, French and German consumption, US version released by Lionsgate who have a distribution deal with SC. American Psycho and Apocalypse Now were released by Lionsgate who have limited worldwide rights to those films. StudioCanal cloned the Lionsgate discs for the UK release of Apocalypse Now but will be doing their own version for Germany.

But if you look at most UHDs from Warners, Fox, Sony, Universal and Paramount (with the occasional US-only disc as Alister mentioned up top) then they're groaning with extra languages because they have the rights to release the film in all those different territories. It doesn't matter if it's what you deem to be a "major movie", it all depends on who is distributing it. Deer Hunter is a fair example of your complaint in action, the previous SC Blu had Spanish, German and Italian language options but it appears that the rights situation has become a little more complicated, e.g. Eagle Pictures now distributes SC product in Italy and so they've done their own local UHD version.

If you care to check the relevant US/UK Blu-rays for most of those films listed you'll find much the same story: a hodge podge of different distributors all over the world and so they're mastering them with the express intent of releasing them in select markets only, and this remains in place with UHD, even with UHD's innate lack of region coding: they're not going to spend more money securing more language tracks/subtitles when it's not their remit to do so. 'Twas ever thus.

Ok. But then how come the regular Blu-rays for all those movies have subtitles in many more languages than the corresponding 4K UHD Blu-ray releases? Wouldn't what you wrote above apply to both the regular Blu-ray and the 4K UHD Blu-ray release of the same movie?

Just as an example, the regular Blu-ray release of Deer Hunter available on amazon.co.uk has subtitles in the following languages: English, French, German, Italian, Castilian, Spanish, Danish, Dutch, Finnish, Norwegian, Swedish, Turkish, Japanese. See this. The 4K UHD release of the same movie only has subtitles in English SDH. Similar difference is found between the regular Blu-ray vs 4K UHD Blu-ray release for all the movies I listed, and many other movies.

[Geoff D]

As I said, Deer Hunter is certainly a fair example, but you've got to bear in mind that not all localised markets are "4K ready", so to speak. The distribution deals that covered Blu-ray don't mean that the UHD is a shoo-in for that market, StudioCanal own the rights to Deer Hunter across Europe IIRC but the video distribution rights themselves are tied up with lots of smaller local distributors, many of whom are nowhere near going into 4K production for themselves - so SC weren't going to spend x amount more money to create a UHD disc with the exact same language set as their BD when there was no local outlet for such a version. And if/when Universal get around to releasing Deer Hunter in North America then it's only going to have North American language options e.g. English, French and Spanish, because that's the only territory they're releasing it in.

Same goes for many of those you've listed if we're just talking about "US/UK" releases. Challenge accepted:

Apocalypse Now: old US BD had no dubs at all and just English (plus HoH), French and Spanish subs. Old UK BD had the same video encode but just English subs. With the UK Final Cut discs being actual clones of the US discs then we now get MORE foreign language subs on the BD, the same English/French/Spanish as mentioned above. Germany gets its own version. Universal handled the distribution of the film on Blu-ray in several territories (Italy, Japan, Scandinavia) so their BD had a lot more language subsets, if they release a UHD version in those territories then it will likely follow the same template.

Lone Survivor: US BD just had English and Spanish audio & subs, the UK/US 4K has the exact same options. The UK BD had Italian as the alternative language option instead of Spanish, but that's it. Nothing else.

American Psycho: old Lionsgate US BD had English audio with English and Spanish subs, UK Lionsgate BD just had English only. The Sony BD released in mainland Europe had a lot more languages and subs, but that's the thing: it's not Sony who've released the UHD disc of American Psycho, Lionsgate have, so the languages on the Lionsgate UK/US UHD mirror the US BD.

Leon: Sony released it in North America, StudioCanal in the UK, and virtually a different distributor for every other mainland European country it's been released in! Sony's US BD had English, French, Portuguese and Spanish (audio and/or subs) and, funnily enough, their US UHD has the exact same language layout. StudioCanal's old UK BD (released via Optimum) had English only and I really wouldn't bet against the upcoming UK UHD of Leon to only have English audio once again.

The Doors: the old StudioCanal (née Optimum) UK BD had English, French and German language options because that was their previous distribution remit and nothing has changed on that front: the UK UHD has English, French and German language options. The old Lionsgate US BD had English and French audio and Spanish subs, but the UHD is a clone of the European disc so it now has English, French and German language options.

I could go on, but the point is that nothing much has really changed for each of those movies, Beer Hunter aside. It sucks but that's the way it is.

[Cook]

"Beer Hunter" sounds like a spoof.

In 2019, Michael (Zach Efron), Nick (Channing Tatum) and Steven (Justin Long), lifelong friends from a working-class Pennsylvania steel town, prepare to graduate college following Steven's elaborate frat party and one final group beer run. At the party, their dreams of sorority sister naked wrestling are quickly shattered by the inhumanities of alcohol poisoning; even those who survive are haunted by the experience, as is Nick's hometown sweetheart, Linda (Brie Larson).

[Geoff D]

Dead Man's Curve 1998 (Deer Hunter Russian Roullette Parody Scene) - YouTube

[Fjodor2000]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

As I said, Deer Hunter is certainly a fair example, but you've got to bear in mind that not all localised markets are "4K ready", so to speak. The distribution deals that covered Blu-ray don't mean that the UHD is a shoo-in for that market, StudioCanal own the rights to Deer Hunter across Europe IIRC but the video distribution rights themselves are tied up with lots of smaller local distributors, many of whom are nowhere near going into 4K production for themselves - so SC weren't going to spend x amount more money to create a UHD disc with the exact same language set as their BD when there was no local outlet for such a version. And if/when Universal get around to releasing Deer Hunter in North America then it's only going to have North American language options e.g. English, French and Spanish, because that's the only territory they're releasing it in.

Same goes for many of those you've listed if we're just talking about "US/UK" releases. Challenge accepted:

Apocalypse Now: old US BD had no dubs at all and just English (plus HoH), French and Spanish subs. Old UK BD had the same video encode but just English subs. With the UK Final Cut discs being actual clones of the US discs then we now get MORE foreign language subs on the BD, the same English/French/Spanish as mentioned above. Germany gets its own version. Universal handled the distribution of the film on Blu-ray in several territories (Italy, Japan, Scandinavia) so their BD had a lot more language subsets, if they release a UHD version in those territories then it will likely follow the same template.

Lone Survivor: US BD just had English and Spanish audio & subs, the UK/US 4K has the exact same options. The UK BD had Italian as the alternative language option instead of Spanish, but that's it. Nothing else.

American Psycho: old Lionsgate US BD had English audio with English and Spanish subs, UK Lionsgate BD just had English only. The Sony BD released in mainland Europe had a lot more languages and subs, but that's the thing: it's not Sony who've released the UHD disc of American Psycho, Lionsgate have, so the languages on the Lionsgate UK/US UHD mirror the US BD.

Leon: Sony released it in North America, StudioCanal in the UK, and virtually a different distributor for every other mainland European country it's been released in! Sony's US BD had English, French, Portuguese and Spanish (audio and/or subs) and, funnily enough, their US UHD has the exact same language layout. StudioCanal's old UK BD (released via Optimum) had English only and I really wouldn't bet against the upcoming UK UHD of Leon to only have English audio once again.

The Doors: the old StudioCanal (née Optimum) UK BD had English, French and German language options because that was their previous distribution remit and nothing has changed on that front: the UK UHD has English, French and German language options. The old Lionsgate US BD had English and French audio and Spanish subs, but the UHD is a clone of the European disc so it now has English, French and German language options.

I could go on, but the point is that nothing much has really changed for each of those movies, Beer Hunter aside. It sucks but that's the way it is.

Well regardless, I can conclude that for Blu-rays probably around 95-98% of all non-niche movies have releases available that contain subtitles in local European languages (for those countries where it is common practice to use subtitles). For 4K UHD Blu rays other other hand, I would estimate it to maybe 70% (with exception for maybe English, French and German who has better coverage).

So it's a big difference.

Based on what you wrote, I can see that it's a real mess regarding who has distribution deals in what countries and regions for each movie. And I can understand that it in some cases may not be economically viable to produce a dedicated release for e.g. Netherlands only (with backside text in Dutch etc), or even the Nordics.

But if they could at least produce one common release for e.g. the European market and add all relevant European subtitles to that, and have the backside in English, problem would be solved. Then that release could be sold by all local distributors, so it would become economically viable. Would that not be a solution?

[Geoff D]

Dude, you're not grasping the reality that the "European market" covers a myriad of local distributors for some movies, each and every one with their own unique deal with the rights holder. They're not going to create a disc for the entire continent by default, it just doesn't work like that when it comes to these piecemeal rights situations that change from country to country, not simply just continent to continent.

It's not just about changing the language on the the "backside". What if the local distributor isn't actually releasing 4K discs at all? They're not going to pay for something they don't want which renders the viability moot. And some distribution deals are dependent on not providing anything other than the original language and the local language dub/subs, just look at the French and their penchant for forced French subtitles when listening to the original audio on locally produced discs.

[Fjodor2000]

What a mess. Anyhow, I think it sucks. And I hope it improves with time (and soon!), so 4K UHD Blu-rays will have as wide selection of subtitles as regular Blu-rays do.

Was it really this bad in the beginning for regular Blu-rays as well, before the sales volumes picked up... ?

[Batman1980]

I thought all 4ks had subtitles, whereas that's not true for all 2ks, I guess I was mistaken.

[Fjodor2000]

Originally Posted by Batman1980

I thought all 4ks had subtitles, whereas that's not true for all 2ks, I guess I was mistaken.

4K UHD Blu-rays in most cases do have subtitles, but just not always a wide selection of them. E.g. in many cases they only have English SDH and/or English, whereas regular Blu-rays in 95-98% of the cases have subtitles in local languages for those countries where subtitles are commonly used.

[Hedrox]

I get what you mean Fjodor, among the companies that have worldwide rights for their movies, Fox is the best example of this.

Some of their earlier UHD titles had a pretty limited selection of subtitles, as you can see here(bear in mind that the UHD disc is the same wordwide, expect UK(censored) and US, while the BD is only CEE, meaning there are way more subtitles that are missing for other regions).

I do wonder if this is a Fox decision, as they do not consider those specific markets "4K ready" or a decision from the local distributor of Fox titles in each market to not pay for a 4K disc.
Either way, the downside to this is that some of these markets will never get a localized 4K version of some earlier movies even when the studio starts releasing 4K titles in said market, because they don't re-author the older titles to include the subtitles missing in the first release(unless it's a remaster or something along those lines).

For example, in my country, we never got the first Transformers movie(2007) on BD, because Paramount were not releasing BDs in my region yet. We did get the rest of the series, but to this day the first movie still lacks a BD release(they released it in UHD but they never bothered to go back an re-author a BD for it with more subtitles to match the rest of the series).

I think Sony are the best at this. Their 4K discs include subtitles for pretty much every region they own the rights to, so even if they have no current plans to release it in said region, the disc is future proof and they can use it to do so whenever they want(look at Step Brothers, it's been release only in the US on 4K, but it includes all the subtitles you'd expect from a worldwide disc).

[Geoff D]

That's the thing though: a major studio deciding not to create a 'worldwide' disc - which itself is a recent phenom as Warners were the only major to extensively practice this during the Blu-ray era, Fox were region locking their BDs for YEARS before also embracing the 'one size' policy - for all its territories is a different situation from all these other flicks that are distributed by a hundred and one different outfits across the world.