Question regarding blu-ray releases/upscales - Blu-ray Forum

Red_Machine · 01-10-2022, 12:34 PM

Hi all, longtime anime fan here with a pretty specific question. I'm keen on buying physical releases of my favourite shows, and I've discovered through bitter experience the travesty that is upscales. I bought boxsets expecting them to be true HD transfers, only to discover they were sloppy upscales of DVD masters (Lucky Star looked awful). I've done a lot of research around this, and have established that there's a window of about a decade where most of the anime released was mastered for SD television on digital video tape, so 480p is all we're ever going to get. There were a few here and there that still mastered to film as they had done up until the 90s, but by and large everything released from the late 90s till about 2010 was mastered to SD digital tape. Then you've got the crossover period where anime was starting to be made in HD, but this wasn't much better than what had come before (Haruhi S2 being mastered in 1080i springs to mind, which barely looks better than DVD) so blu-ray releases can be hit or miss. Until after about 2012/13 when the migration to HD was complete and we got competent high definition masters that could shine on blu-ray.

I have discovered in the last couple of years that some of the anime that I had previously downloaded BD rip fansubs of wasn't actually mastered in HD, or the only blu-ray releases that are available in the west are upscales from SD masters because the studios were either unwilling or unable to source the original HD masters. I've been wanting to migrate more of my collection from digital downloads to physical copies, but in some cases a show's HD bona fides are in doubt. I would rather watch a show in its native format, as I have an SD CRT television to watch DVDs on, and not buy upscales. Is there some place I can look online to see what the native format is? Blu-ray reviews aren't always forthcoming about that, so I'm honestly not sure what to buy.

Specifically for right now, I'm considering buying Toradora (which appears to be an upscale, according to myReviewer), Amagami SS (which is from that nebulous limbo era where some were mastered in HD and others SD), Serial Experiments Lain (which according to myReviewer was sorced from film masters and is true HD), and Ergo Proxy (which apparently is one of those incredibly rare actual HD animes from the early/mid 2000s). It's just a bit hard at times to verify the facts, and would appreciate some advice from fellow afficionados. Thanks.

Warm Gun · 01-10-2022, 12:51 PM

IMDB is generally a good source. Here are the specs for Lain.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0500092...ef_=tt_spec_sm

35 mm, some in digital. Having looked at it myself, it's definitely Full HD. Cel animation was still used in 1998.

IMDB says Toradora is 480p.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1279024/technical

Warm Gun · 01-10-2022, 12:58 PM

I wish SD Blu-rays were more common. Not a fan of 720x576 or 720x480 being blown up to 1080p. It's wasteful. You could store way more content at better bitrates (for the resolution) by keeping the native resolution.

Red_Machine · 01-10-2022, 01:00 PM

The only thing the upscaled blu-rays have going for them, really, is that you get to watch them in their native frame rate. Be it either 24fps or 30fps. In PAL regions, we got NTSC conversions that ranged from okay to barely watchable. But I'd rather have native resolution, or close to it at least given the conversion from 480i to 576i.

Warm Gun · 01-10-2022, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red_Machine

The only thing the upscaled blu-rays have going for them, really, is that you get to watch them in their native frame rate. Be it either 24fps or 30fps. In PAL regions, we got NTSC conversions that ranged from okay to barely watchable. But I'd rather have native resolution, or close to it at least given the conversion from 480i to 576i.

Well, most anime of the digital era are like 720p, so you still get more by blowing those up to 1080p than by going down to SD. I don't think the Blu-ray specifications/players even support 1280x720. If it is supported, then I'd imagine many players are picky with it.

twentythird · 01-10-2022, 01:51 PM

Out of the ones you mentioned:

Lain is pretty great despite being a mix of film footage, recomposited digital shots, and probably some upscaled bits that blend pretty well. In fact, I recall only a couple of shots not too far from each other in a late episode that clearly stand out as bad-looking.

As for Toradora, if the HD version on Netflix is any indication, it looks like your average anime upscale, not super good. It may not be to your liking, but I’ve seen much much worse.

Spoofer · 01-10-2022, 06:46 PM

I prefer consistency in look, so I also prefer the lower resolution, softness, and drawbacks of 480i DVD compared to typical overly-sharpened and inconsistently blurry BD upscales.

My midrange TCL utilizes very conservative upscaling that creates a natural soft look, even better than my OPPO 203 which is far too aggressive and creates a lot of visual distortions, especially for 30f anime (I switch to my PS3 and output in 480p for these, as ironically it handles deinterlacing 30f content better than anything else I own).

SD-BDs are great, though correct me if I'm wrong but the spec only supports 480i, rather than 480p 24f, right? That's the one drawback that impedes it from being the perfect solution for film content that won't otherwise get a genuine HD release, as at least with DVD I could use my OPPO to force 24f playback. Are there any players that can force 24f on SD-BD content?

cicada88 · 01-11-2022, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoofer

SD-BDs are great, though correct me if I'm wrong but the spec only supports 480i, rather than 480p 24f, right? That's the one drawback that impedes it from being the perfect solution for film content that won't otherwise get a genuine HD release, as at least with DVD I could use my OPPO to force 24f playback. Are there any players that can force 24f on SD-BD content?

I don’t own any SD on Blu-ray yet, but it’s my understanding that while 24fps SD content is not strictly within Blu-ray spec, you can burn a disc with it and almost all players (should) play it back without issue.

Whether or not officially pressed discs ever fall out of spec like this, I couldn’t tell you.

Related Discussion:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...SD-Progressive

01-10-2022, 12:34 PM	#1
Red_Machine Junior Member Member since:Jan 2021 4K collection:25 Blu-ray collection:170 DVD collection:329 Digital collection:5 iTunes collection:89	Question regarding blu-ray releases/upscales Hi all, longtime anime fan here with a pretty specific question. I'm keen on buying physical releases of my favourite shows, and I've discovered through bitter experience the travesty that is upscales. I bought boxsets expecting them to be true HD transfers, only to discover they were sloppy upscales of DVD masters (Lucky Star looked awful). I've done a lot of research around this, and have established that there's a window of about a decade where most of the anime released was mastered for SD television on digital video tape, so 480p is all we're ever going to get. There were a few here and there that still mastered to film as they had done up until the 90s, but by and large everything released from the late 90s till about 2010 was mastered to SD digital tape. Then you've got the crossover period where anime was starting to be made in HD, but this wasn't much better than what had come before (Haruhi S2 being mastered in 1080i springs to mind, which barely looks better than DVD) so blu-ray releases can be hit or miss. Until after about 2012/13 when the migration to HD was complete and we got competent high definition masters that could shine on blu-ray. I have discovered in the last couple of years that some of the anime that I had previously downloaded BD rip fansubs of wasn't actually mastered in HD, or the only blu-ray releases that are available in the west are upscales from SD masters because the studios were either unwilling or unable to source the original HD masters. I've been wanting to migrate more of my collection from digital downloads to physical copies, but in some cases a show's HD bona fides are in doubt. I would rather watch a show in its native format, as I have an SD CRT television to watch DVDs on, and not buy upscales. Is there some place I can look online to see what the native format is? Blu-ray reviews aren't always forthcoming about that, so I'm honestly not sure what to buy. Specifically for right now, I'm considering buying Toradora (which appears to be an upscale, according to myReviewer), Amagami SS (which is from that nebulous limbo era where some were mastered in HD and others SD), Serial Experiments Lain (which according to myReviewer was sorced from film masters and is true HD), and Ergo Proxy (which apparently is one of those incredibly rare actual HD animes from the early/mid 2000s). It's just a bit hard at times to verify the facts, and would appreciate some advice from fellow afficionados. Thanks.

01-10-2022, 12:51 PM	#2
Warm Gun Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Dec 2020 4K collection:127 Blu-ray collection:650 DVD collection:103 Digital collection:2 Trading Score:10	IMDB is generally a good source. Here are the specs for Lain. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0500092...ef_=tt_spec_sm 35 mm, some in digital. Having looked at it myself, it's definitely Full HD. Cel animation was still used in 1998. IMDB says Toradora is 480p. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1279024/technical Last edited by Warm Gun; 01-10-2022 at 12:56 PM.

01-10-2022, 12:58 PM	#3
Warm Gun Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Dec 2020 4K collection:127 Blu-ray collection:650 DVD collection:103 Digital collection:2 Trading Score:10	I wish SD Blu-rays were more common. Not a fan of 720x576 or 720x480 being blown up to 1080p. It's wasteful. You could store way more content at better bitrates (for the resolution) by keeping the native resolution.

01-10-2022, 01:00 PM	#4
Red_Machine Junior Member Member since:Jan 2021 4K collection:25 Blu-ray collection:170 DVD collection:329 Digital collection:5 iTunes collection:89	The only thing the upscaled blu-rays have going for them, really, is that you get to watch them in their native frame rate. Be it either 24fps or 30fps. In PAL regions, we got NTSC conversions that ranged from okay to barely watchable. But I'd rather have native resolution, or close to it at least given the conversion from 480i to 576i.

01-10-2022, 01:51 PM	#6
twentythird Senior Member Top contributor Member since:Jul 2011 4K collection:16 Blu-ray collection:153 Trading Score:78	Out of the ones you mentioned: Lain is pretty great despite being a mix of film footage, recomposited digital shots, and probably some upscaled bits that blend pretty well. In fact, I recall only a couple of shots not too far from each other in a late episode that clearly stand out as bad-looking. As for Toradora, if the HD version on Netflix is any indication, it looks like your average anime upscale, not super good. It may not be to your liking, but I’ve seen much much worse.

01-10-2022, 06:46 PM	#7
Spoofer Active Member Member since:Jan 2011	I prefer consistency in look, so I also prefer the lower resolution, softness, and drawbacks of 480i DVD compared to typical overly-sharpened and inconsistently blurry BD upscales. My midrange TCL utilizes very conservative upscaling that creates a natural soft look, even better than my OPPO 203 which is far too aggressive and creates a lot of visual distortions, especially for 30f anime (I switch to my PS3 and output in 480p for these, as ironically it handles deinterlacing 30f content better than anything else I own). SD-BDs are great, though correct me if I'm wrong but the spec only supports 480i, rather than 480p 24f, right? That's the one drawback that impedes it from being the perfect solution for film content that won't otherwise get a genuine HD release, as at least with DVD I could use my OPPO to force 24f playback. Are there any players that can force 24f on SD-BD content?

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