Audiophile CDs

[Josh]

This thread is for the discussion of audiophile grade CDs, which for the purpose of this thread is defined as any CD media which has been specifically designed for the purposes of maximizing the delivery of audio from the Compact Disc medium. These formats include:

Blu-spec CD - Using the Blu-ray manufacturing process, these CDs are said to be more accurate representations of the source based on tighter manufacturing limits.

DTS-CD - A pseudo-CD (while it physically conforms with the Red Book standard, the data does not), this disc contains a DTS bitstream (normally in surround sound) that can only play on enabled players.

DXD CD - This format starts with SACD DXD files and down-converts to CD quality.

Gold CD - These (typically) limited edition CDs use gold for the reflective layer of the disc, which is more reflective than standard CDs. Additionally, the companies who use Gold CDs (Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs and Audio Fidelity) typically employ well known sound engineers to remaster the material to obtain the best results.

HDCD - Similar to SACDs (though rarely implemented) CDs have the ability to store track information on the disc. This format uses that predetermined space in addition to an algorithm, to extend the normal 16-bit CD to 20-bit performance. Discs require HDCD enabled players to decode the full improvement but play in normal players.

SHM-CD - SHM (or Super High Material) CDs use a medium which is clearer than normal CDs to improve the ability of the laser to read the data on the disc. Additionally, they typically use a green label to absorb any misdirected laser.

Ultra High Definition CD - These discs start with a 32-bit master and down-covert to CD quality.

XRCD - JVC perfected a method of transferring analog masters to the digital medium (called "K2") and offers up disc utilizing this method under the XRCD, XRCD2, and XRCD24 flavors.

Please let me know if I've missed anything

[Johnny Vinyl]

Outstanding thread Josh!

As someone with very limited knowledge of all things digital I have no doubt this thread will help me a great deal.

I have a few SHM-CD's and have been quite impressed with the added resolution over Redbook CD, although not in every case.

I'm quite interested in getting more of these and look forward to member input about their choices.

I have a few FIM/MA recordings and also a few Nordic2L ones...all of which are quite nice.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vinyl

Outstanding thread Josh!

As someone with very limited knowledge of all things digital I have no doubt this thread will help me a great deal.

I have a few SHM-CD's and have been quite impressed with the added resolution over Redbook CD, although not in every case.

I'm quite interested in getting more of these and look forward to member input about their choices.

I have a few FIM/MA recordings and also a few Nordic2L ones...all of which are quite nice.

JV,

Earlier this year, I was in the same position you are in now - diving into a very, very large sea of CD material, not sure what I was going to like and what I could get my hands on. But similar to vinyl, the quality of the master and the skill of the mixer are ultimately more important than the medium it comes on. To that regard, I have found that the Steve Hoffman mixes I have prove to be the most reliable in terms of meeting my sonic demands. If you've heard his mixes, you either like them or you don't. And if you like them, you would be hard pressed to find better versions of the albums he's mixed.

http://www.stevehoffman.info/disc-dcc_1.html

As you can see, most of his stuff can be found on (the now defunct) DCC Gold CD collection. With a few exceptions (typically due to the lack of good source material), the discs are sonic masterpieces. I would suggest picking up a title from the above linked discography and starting their with your exploration of Gold CDs.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Josh

Please let me know if I've missed anything

Just in the thread title!

[bbrown5222]

As someone who keeps trying to find the perfect sound, I have tried most of the formats you list, and here are some quick thoughts.

Blu Spec - CD-- I have been very inpressed in the 48 of them I have, and have found all enjoyable.

DTS-CD -- while I do enjoy the 7 I have, I stopp buying them due to the limited ways they could be played.

Gold-CD -- While I did not get any from DCC, I have now gotten the full catalog and joined their club so as soon as new one come out I get them from Audio Fidelity, and I am very happy with them.

SHM-CD -- I now have 125 of them and find them hit or miss, so I am now slow to get more of them.

Here are a couple of comments for ones not listed.

SACD -- I now have 257 of them, and there are so many versions of the, it is easy to see why they did not take off. some of the ways was: SACD player only, hybrid ones could be played in CD players, by getting them you did not have to buy 2 copies of disc just so they could be played in your car, also some were Mono, some were stero some were multi channel. so there is just so much to consider.


SUPERDISC-- These are from Monster Music: there are not many so I only have 7 of them. I wished more of these were done as I find them to have the overall best sound of all the ones I commented on above, and they each comes with a CD that sound great also.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Just in the thread title!

Oh

OOOOOOOOOOOO

sorry Josh

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by Josh

JV,

Earlier this year, I was in the same position you are in now - diving into a very, very large sea of CD material, not sure what I was going to like and what I could get my hands on. But similar to vinyl, the quality of the master and the skill of the mixer are ultimately more important than the medium it comes on. To that regard, I have found that the Steve Hoffman mixes I have prove to be the most reliable in terms of meeting my sonic demands. If you've heard his mixes, you either like them or you don't. And if you like them, you would be hard pressed to find better versions of the albums he's mixed.

http://www.stevehoffman.info/disc-dcc_1.html

As you can see, most of his stuff can be found on (the now defunct) DCC Gold CD collection. With a few exceptions (typically due to the lack of good source material), the discs are sonic masterpieces. I would suggest picking up a title from the above linked discography and starting their with your exploration of Gold CDs.

I have a few SH mastered CDs (LPs as well), although none of the DCC Gold titles. I start looking around and see what I can find.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Just in the thread title!

Haha! You coulda fixed that for him! Anyway...I took the liberty!

[Josh]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Just in the thread title!

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

Oh

OOOOOOOOOOOO

sorry Josh

Originally Posted by Johnny Vinyl

Haha! You coulda fixed that for him! Anyway...I took the liberty!

[Josh]

Originally Posted by bbrown5222

Here are a couple of comments for ones not listed.

SACD -- I now have 257 of them, and there are so many versions of the, it is easy to see why they did not take off. some of the ways was: SACD player only, hybrid ones could be played in CD players, by getting them you did not have to buy 2 copies of disc just so they could be played in your car, also some were Mono, some were stero some were multi channel. so there is just so much to consider.

We have another thread dedicated to SACD.

SUPERDISC-- These are from Monster Music: there are not many so I only have 7 of them. I wished more of these were done as I find them to have the overall best sound of all the ones I commented on above, and they each comes with a CD that sound great also.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a DVD-based format? Akin to DVD-A?

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vinyl

I have a few SH mastered CDs (LPs as well), although none of the DCC Gold titles. I start looking around and see what I can find.

I can give you honest opinions on any CD in my catalog. I've listed them all out in the second post of my thread.

[bbrown5222]

Originally Posted by Josh

We have another thread dedicated to SACD.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a DVD-based format? Akin to DVD-A?

Yes: Superdisc are a DVD based format but the ones I have sounds very good.

[GenPion]

Crazy to think there are so many different audio CD formats that are each only slightly different from the rest. I didn't fully understand what HDCD was and find it curious that essentially you get a hi-res (but not studio master quality) version that is at the minimum better than standard CD quality. Why Microsoft bought a patent for it and essentially killed HDCD is another question. It's better that we are moving in the direction of full 24 bit HD sound quality, but I find it intriguing HDCD's were released and (as far as I can tell) had little to no fan-fare. They can play on ordinary CD players and on devices equipped for HDCD playback it would be a better than normal CD (and better than these other redbook CD options, from what I am reading). Obviously SACD and hi-res flac/etc would still be superior.

My Oppo can play HDCD but I haven't played back any on the system yet. I guess I can start with Sigur Ros () and the Princess Mononoke score, neither of which I realized were HDCD format. Maybe some Joni Mitchell too.

I am curious about the division about SHM-CD: regarding if it has any benefit over a standard CD or not. I am skeptical of it given that people have said they did an exact scan of the disc and found identical results to normal CD's. And given that it is still standard 16 bit, that doesn't sound too good to me either as it's not really a fully hi-res option. However, if it really does sound better, even if only a little bit, I might want a few. I might buy one and compare just to see if I can notice any favorable difference. I read that the entire Chemical Brothers catalog is going to come out on SHM-CD from Japan for around $14 each.

In the US, Astralwerks seems to show no interest in HD audio quality presentations and Universal has the rights in Japan to the Chemical Brothers catalog. So, theoretically, this might be the best possible playback option even if there is only a small improvement. Then again, maybe it wouldn't be worth it. And then 24 bit versions will pop out of nowhere when I don't expect them to arrive. But if that never happens maybe these would be good editions? The Chemical Brothers are one of my favorite groups and I have been hoping for 24 bit versions... even though this isn't that, I am still wondering if I would appreciate or notice any improvement or if these releases are a waste of my time.

Any thoughts on that from any of you?

[Josh]

Originally Posted by GenPion

Crazy to think there are so many different audio CD formats that are each only slightly different from the rest. I didn't fully understand what HDCD was and find it curious that essentially you get a hi-res (but not studio master quality) version that is at the minimum better than standard CD quality. Why Microsoft bought a patent for it and essentially killed HDCD is another question. It's better that we are moving in the direction of full 24 bit HD sound quality, but I find it intriguing HDCD's were released and (as far as I can tell) had little to no fan-fare. They can play on ordinary CD players and on devices equipped for HDCD playback it would be a better than normal CD (and better than these other redbook CD options, from what I am reading). Obviously SACD and hi-res flac/etc would still be superior.

My Oppo can play HDCD but I haven't played back any on the system yet. I guess I can start with Sigur Ros () and the Princess Mononoke score, neither of which I realized were HDCD format. Maybe some Joni Mitchell too.

HDCD was/is a weird format. The concept of using allocated but rarely used space on a CD to increase the fidelity was novel, but in practice I think the results were questionable at best. The first problem was that, due to the algorithm used to get from 16-bit to 20-bit had the potential to add noise, so it wasn't used all of the time. Some HDCD releases only will use the extension on certain tracks. I have an Orgy release that only has one or two songs that take advantage of the additional processing.

The second problem is that its wasn't well marketed. The aforementioned Orgy album wasn't even marked as HDCD on the back cover. I do have a Cars album in HDCD that sounds outstanding, so it does help. I even have a copy of Jimi Hendrix - The Ultimate Experience in HDCD (only 5000 copies and only in the UK) that is the only version of Hendrix in hi rez (I think), but with such a limited release, who would know?

I am curious about the division about SHM-CD: regarding if it has any benefit over a standard CD or not. I am skeptical of it given that people have said they did an exact scan of the disc and found identical results to normal CD's. And given that it is still standard 16 bit, that doesn't sound too good to me either as it's not really a fully hi-res option. However, if it really does sound better, even if only a little bit, I might want a few. I might buy one and compare just to see if I can notice any favorable difference. I read that the entire Chemical Brothers catalog is going to come out on SHM-CD from Japan for around $14 each.

The real advantage of SHM-CD is the masters used, but even those are questionable. For instance, I just ordered all the Dire Straits SHM-SACDs from Japan because they have the best digital version of the album. All but Dire Straits - S/T because the Platinum SHM-CD actually has the better master. And don't get that confused with the regular SHM-CD which has the same master as the SHM-SACD.

Another example, is the Metallica SHM-CDs out there. The original releases in the collectible Mini LP cases had horrible masters. They re-released them in the "budget" SHM-CD line with the better masters. So in actuality, the cheaper SHM-CDs are better than the collectible ones.

So if you find a CD you might want in SHM-CD, check out the DR score before buying.

In the US, Astralwerks seems to show no interest in HD audio quality presentations and Universal has the rights in Japan to the Chemical Brothers catalog. So, theoretically, this might be the best possible playback option even if there is only a small improvement. Then again, maybe it wouldn't be worth it. And then 24 bit versions will pop out of nowhere when I don't expect them to arrive. But if that never happens maybe these would be good editions? The Chemical Brothers are one of my favorite groups and I have been hoping for 24 bit versions... even though this isn't that, I am still wondering if I would appreciate or notice any improvement or if these releases are a waste of my time.

Any thoughts on that from any of you?

I actually just saw that SHM-CDs of The Chemical Brothers are being re-released in Japan in April, so it might be worth importing one to see how it sounds. The DR ratings on their stuff are just average, so I'm not sure if it will be any better, but it might be worth a shot.

[thecalm_7]

I'm not an audio buff, I wish I was but working in loud environments has made my hearing rather lousy. So I never invested into high end audio.

4 questions
Where do you get these formats? I never see them in big box stores or in record stores

What plays these formats?

Will I be able to hear the difference in quality if doing a side by side? I don't know the audio terms, but is it as noticeable as 480/1080 difference?

I've got some Japanese Final Fantasy OST/Scores and the data side is Gold tinted, is that the gold you refer to?

Thanks

[Solo man]

Nice thread Josh. Do you know much about the K2HD mastering CD's? They are expensive but my favourite K2 cd is Eagles Hell Freezes Over. They are redbook CD's but thought I would mention it. Best of Andre Bocelli Vivere is nice as well with the K2 mastering.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by thecalm_7

I'm not an audio buff, I wish I was but working in loud environments has made my hearing rather lousy. So I never invested into high end audio.

4 questions
Where do you get these formats? I never see them in big box stores or in record stores

Specialty online stores like Acoustic Sounds, Music Direct and Elusive Disc have the best selection, though Amazon will sometimes carry a few releases.

What plays these formats?

With the exception of the DTS-CD, these will play in any CD player. If the CD player also does DTS, then the DTS-CD will work.

Will I be able to hear the difference in quality if doing a side by side? I don't know the audio terms, but is it as noticeable as 480/1080 difference?

The difference is easiest hear between a bad master and a good master. These formats typically attempt to use the best master available, which (especially for older releases) can be much better than what you can buy currently on CD. If you already have a good CD (check out the DR Rating), you likely won't be able to hear a difference.

I've got some Japanese Final Fantasy OST/Scores and the data side is Gold tinted, is that the gold you refer to?
Thanks

Maybe. Gold CDs usually are sold as such ("24 karat gold") because the reflective layer of the disc is gold. If you visit one of the linked sites above, they will have some examples.

[seitei]

Originally Posted by bbrown5222

As someone who keeps trying to find the perfect sound, I have tried most of the formats you list, and here are some quick thoughts.

Blu Spec - CD-- I have been very inpressed in the 48 of them I have, and have found all enjoyable.

DTS-CD -- while I do enjoy the 7 I have, I stopp buying them due to the limited ways they could be played.

Gold-CD -- While I did not get any from DCC, I have now gotten the full catalog and joined their club so as soon as new one come out I get them from Audio Fidelity, and I am very happy with them.

SHM-CD -- I now have 125 of them and find them hit or miss, so I am now slow to get more of them.

Here are a couple of comments for ones not listed.

SACD -- I now have 257 of them, and there are so many versions of the, it is easy to see why they did not take off. some of the ways was: SACD player only, hybrid ones could be played in CD players, by getting them you did not have to buy 2 copies of disc just so they could be played in your car, also some were Mono, some were stero some were multi channel. so there is just so much to consider.


SUPERDISC-- These are from Monster Music: there are not many so I only have 7 of them. I wished more of these were done as I find them to have the overall best sound of all the ones I commented on above, and they each comes with a CD that sound great also.

This is something I wanted to know for a long time. Thanks.

[m mac]

Wow ! another format Blu Ray audio..always looking for the best sound ,
I will buy Beatles when available in Nov.
question, since blu ray has potential for 7 hours recording, for an audio recording
I would assume its only using a fraction of the space.
And why such a big box, when space is an issue , my cd storage is growing ,as well as my vinyl.
Just got Glenn Gould 1955 recording the Goldberg Variations in sacd ,how is that possible.
With many computers, and other hardware,Zenph.home they were able to actually
have the piano play itself ,recording every nuance, the touch of the piano keys.
Then to record that new performance. Skeptics were amazed , as was I.
Vinyl still reigns supreme, and never disappoints
Blu Ray Audio...keep an open mind ,empty wallet

[neilwilkes]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vinyl

Outstanding thread Josh!
I have a few SHM-CD's and have been quite impressed with the added resolution over Redbook CD, although not in every case.

Sorry to say this, but there is absolutely no difference in resolution between "regular" CD and any other type, be it SHM-CD or "Blu-Spec CD". All these are doing is charging a LOT more money to , er, make the damned CD properly in the first place. That is all - however you dress it up the actual audio data is still 16-bit 44.1kHz Red Book.
SHM-CD and SHM-SACD are tricks of marketing, and so-called Blu-Spec is the same but this time trying to make people think the product is related to Blu-ray in some way (although very cleverly not actually claiming this).

If you are hearing any difference at all it is down to one of 2 things:
1 - Better manufactured discs have fewer balance issues in players. The speed these things rotate at is phenomenally fast and a poorly manufactured disc can make a horrendous noise in the transport.
2 - Placebo effect. You expect it to sound "better" so you think it does.

I repeat - the audio data is still red book, and has no increased resolution whatsoever. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.