Hard to pardon: why Tenet's muffled dialogue is a very modern problem

[jbloggs]

Hard to pardon: why Tenet's muffled dialogue is a very modern problem

"Christopher Nolan’s latest blockbuster is already infamous for its barely audible exchanges. As sound technology advances, why are films getting harder to hear?"

https://www.theguardian.com/film/202...und-technology

[Wernski]

I just assume that if a filmmaker buries any dialogue in the sound mix that it wasn't important for the audience to hear.

[Dr Lenera]

Maybe it's me, or maybe it's where I was sitting..but I had no problem hearing dialogue except for two lines where I may just have temporarily tuned out due to the information overload. Interstellar was another matter though......

[Bugg]

Originally Posted by Wernski

I just assume that if a filmmaker buries any dialogue in the sound mix that it wasn't important for the audience to hear.

I could see thinking that if I was some throwaway banter in a Fast & Furious film, but in a Nolan film that is largely built on dialogue driven exposition, I assume it's important to understand what the characters are saying.

[Mothravka]

I like subtitles.

[CreasyBear]

I chalk it up to theaters with blown speakers or not properly calibrated rooms. I personally only ever remember like one line of dialogue in Interstellar being muffled. No issues in my Ht.

[ArrestedDevelopment]

Sound mixing done right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REJ9...ature=youtu.be

[Damon1281]

I don't know what they mean by "very modern" but it's been my gripe with surround sound (at home) since the beginning. You dial in one movie and then the next one has to be re-adjusted. I just watch in stereo mostly or use the projector speaker.

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by Damon1281

I don't know what they mean by "very modern" but it's been my gripe with surround sound (at home) since the beginning. You dial in one movie and then the next one has to be re-adjusted. I just watch in stereo mostly or use the projector speaker.

Every movie is mixed differently, but in general if you have good speakers, you shouldn't have to adjust anything but on the rarest of occasions.

[Babu93]

I really don't get some of the arguments that Nolan did this deliberately and he wants you to "pay attention".

If he wants you to pay attention to exposition, why bury it in the sound mix? And if he doesn't want you to hear it at all because he's more concerned about cinematic storytelling - the visuals, the score etc... why write lengthy exposition scenes in the first place?

Hitchcock had neat techniques for nixing exposition he didn't think was necessary - often showing characters talking on the other side of glass, for example. He would deliberately sign post dialogue he didn't want you to hear, and therefore the audience had an understanding what that dialogue might entail.

Nolan's approach in Tenet, if deliberate, is a total misfire. And ultimately detracts from the enjoyment of the film. I understood the plot of Tenet fine - but to me things like muffled dialogue felt like it was making the film purposefully convoluted, to make it seem cleverer than it actually was.

[Monterey Jack]

Originally Posted by Babu93

If he wants you to pay attention to exposition, why bury it in the sound mix? And if he doesn't want you to hear it at all because he's more concerned about cinematic storytelling - the visuals, the score etc... why write lengthy exposition scenes in the first place?

Exactly. Show, don't tell. If characters are speaking, I want to clearly understand what they're saying, goddammit.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by Babu93

Hitchcock had neat techniques for nixing exposition he didn't think was necessary - often showing characters talking on the other side of glass, for example. He would deliberately sign post dialogue he didn't want you to hear, and therefore the audience had an understanding what that dialogue might entail.

My two favorites are Leo G. Carroll explaining the McuGffin to Cary Grant in North by Northwest on the airport runway drowned out by the sound of the plane he's about to board's propellors and the lengthy silent hotel sequence in Topaz where we see George Stanford Brown bribing one of the Cuban delegation from across the road from the safety of a florist shop window: we don't need to know how he does it, just that he succeeds.

[Aclea]

One of the reader comments below the article explains it better than the article itself:

AlanAudio

I have worked as a sound recordist and also a dubbing mixer for much of my working life on both television dramas and film, so I do have some experience of how this can happen and how it can be avoided.

It’s not a technical problem, it’s a people problem. Essentially the director is overly familiar with the dialogue. They have worked on the script for months, rehearsed extensively and shot multiple takes. They have heard every line hundreds of times and can pick out the words even if they are indistinct. If a sound mixer points out that the dialogue is not sufficiently clear, either because it was mumbled or because clear pickup was not possible, the director invariably asks to hear a replay and is likely to insist that they heard every word.

Similarly in post production, everybody involved would have read the script and heard every line dozens of times. They too are totally familiar with the dialogue and will be able to make out the words even when they are being obscured by music or sound effects.

I would expect the sound department both on location and in post production to alert the director when dialogue is in sufficiently clear. If they don’t, then they have to accept the responsibility. On the other hand, if they point out problems and the director disregards them, then it’s down to the director.

The viewer does not have the benefit of the script, nor have they heard the rehearsals and previous takes. They only get the one opportunity to hear those words, in real time and have to do so even if other sounds are fighting for attention.

When I mixed the completed sound track, I generally erred on the side of preserving the clarity of the dialogue, but often had to fight my corner when working with a director who had different priorities. There was frequently some sort of compromise, but not too much of a compromise.

Some people try to blame deteriorating hearing or modern television sets/cinemas, but if an old movie is screened and heard to be satisfactory, the explanation has to lie elsewhere.

In some cases budget constraints pressurise directors to rush on location and then sort any problems out in post production. In other cases a director might be somewhat inexperienced or not very sympathetic towards the needs of the sound dept, but whatever the real reason, it remains a people problem, not a technical problem.

[Damon1281]

Originally Posted by CreasyBear

Every movie is mixed differently, but in general if you have good speakers, you shouldn't have to adjust anything but on the rarest of occasions.

I have good speakers and have been setting up sound systems for over 40 years.

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by Damon1281

I have good speakers and have been setting up sound systems for over 40 years.

It doesn't sound like it. If you have a good center channel and sufficient power, it shouldn't be an issue. At the most, it should just require you to turn the center up 1 or 2 db.

[Damon1281]

Originally Posted by CreasyBear

It doesn't sound like it. If you have a good center channel and sufficient power, it shouldn't be an issue. At the most, it should just require you to turn the center up 1 or 2 db.

The problem is having to change it for several movies. I can make any movie sound like I want but the next movie I have to change it. It has nothing to do with the quality of the gear and everything to do with different mixes.

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by Damon1281

The problem is having to change it for several movies. I can make any movie sound like I want but the next movie I have to change it. It has nothing to do with the quality of the gear and everything to do with different mixes.

I literally never have do this. I tend to play films around -18db to -23db depending on the film, but I've never had to adjust my center to compensate. For certain some films are mixed more aggressively and require a volume adjustment, but never a channel adjustment. Maybe stop trying to make every film sound the same and accept that some films are mixed differently by the filmmakers. Do you adjust your television to make every film look the way you want it? Same principle.

[Damon1281]

Originally Posted by CreasyBear

I literally never have do this. I tend to play films around -18db to -23db depending on the film, but I've never had to adjust my center to compensate. For certain some films are mixed more aggressively and require a volume adjustment, but never a channel adjustment. Maybe stop trying to make every film sound the same and accept that some films are mixed differently by the filmmakers. Do you adjust your television to make every film look the way you want it? Same principle.

I'm just trying to hear what they say mostly. The amount of volume difference between voice and music on some films is beyond ridiculous. I'll wait for Tenet to come to streaming and use subtitles.

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by Damon1281

I'm just trying to hear what they say mostly. The amount of volume difference between voice and music on some films is beyond ridiculous. I'll wait for Tenet to come to streaming and use subtitles.

Then it's likely your center speaker or hearing.

I do think that in certain ways modern soundtracks are overstuffed and too busy. Most of my favorite soundtracks are 15-20+ years old. I do not think that of Nolan's films though. I love that he has stuck with 5.1 because honestly, I feel like beyond that mixes become too overburdened with trying to show off as opposed to servicing the film. I've had 7.1 and upfiring Atmos in my home theater and I've gone back to 5.1 with perfectly placed surrounds, which I find more engaging and enveloping than the monotony of simply adding more speakers all over my home theater.

[L.J.]

Originally Posted by Damon1281

I'm just trying to hear what they say mostly. The amount of volume difference between voice and music on some films is beyond ridiculous. I'll wait for Tenet to come to streaming and use subtitles.

I have had this problem a lot lately at home. Have wondered if my hearing isn't as good as it used to be. Thing is most tv shows and films usually have no problem hearing the dialogue. Not sure if its the mixes or me, maybe a little of both.