How audio is stored on film

[Redneck9]

Originally Posted by blu-ray_girl_fan

Lemme say this.

The Dolby Digital 5.1 tracks on DVDs are better quality than the audio tracks that are used in movie theaters.

No! not even...

This Is how (film based) theater audio works:

DTS: There is a time coding on the print that syncs with CD. Usually there are 2 or 3 discs, No more that 3 discs. disc 1 contains preview tracks, while discs 2 and 3 contain the feature track. Often times you will hear static during the previews because the preview disc may not contain the track for that particular title. Another reason static may be present is if the order of the previews on the film is not identical to the layout of the previews on the preview CD(sometimes distributors want the previews to be seen in a specific order and don't care to mirror the previews with the disc) Other times the projectionist could care less about the order of the previews when building a print up at 3:30 in the morning. As far as soundtrack quality goes sometimes the engineer is forced to bounce the soundtrack when mixing for the film because each channel in allocated a certain amount of space. Other times the feature requires the use of all three disc trays(Return of the King) Why? the movie is longer and needs the extra disc.

DD: Is five pulse lines on the side of the print, why 5? because the sub uses low channel crossover created by the in house equipment. If there is a large dynamic soundtrack it requires the projectionist to turn up the PA level(action films) Comedies often don't require such a boost but that varies from print to print. These tracks are also closer to the master, the engineer is never forced to bounce tracks to save space. Dolby is also more durable and the print can be viewed more times, dts soundtracks have a lifespan of 2 or 3 months.

Which is better? Dolby hands down!!! Happier patrons, Fewer technical issues. It's just all around better.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

No! not even...

This Is how (film based) theater audio works:

DTS: There is a time coding on the print that syncs with CD. Usually there are 2 or 3 discs, No more that 3 discs. disc 1 contains preview tracks, while discs 2 and 3 contain the feature track. Often times you will hear static during the previews because the preview disc may not contain the track for that particular title. Another reason static may be present is if the order of the previews on the film is not identical to the layout of the previews on the preview CD(sometimes distributors want the previews to be seen in a specific order and don't care to mirror the previews with the disc) Other times the projectionist could care less about the order of the previews when building a print up at 3:30 in the morning. As far as soundtrack quality goes sometimes the engineer is forced to bounce the soundtrack when mixing for the film because each channel in allocated a certain amount of space. Other times the feature requires the use of all three disc trays(Return of the King) Why? the movie is longer and needs the extra disc.

This is not true. I work in the cinema industry and have worked on installs for movie projectors for more than 30 years. There are two discs readers (cd-rom) and three disc readers (disc only) for DTS. DTS timecode reads the data ahead of time and reads it off the disc, there is no difference in what order you play the trailers. The pop sound is from the splice, the dts reader reverts to dolby sr/srd and then back again when the dts time code is read.

Yes, there are trailer discs for dts only, however most features contain the DTS information on the actual feature discs and movie prints always have "attached" trailers on the print.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

N
DD: Is five pulse lines on the side of the print, why 5? because the sub uses low channel crossover created by the in house equipment. If there is a large dynamic soundtrack it requires the projectionist to turn up the PA level(action films) Comedies often don't require such a boost but that varies from print to print. These tracks are also closer to the master, the engineer is never forced to bounce tracks to save space. Dolby is also more durable and the print can be viewed more times, dts soundtracks have a lifespan of 2 or 3 months.

Which is better? Dolby hands down!!! Happier patrons, Fewer technical issues. It's just all around better.

Dolby SRD (Dolby Digital) for cinemas places the information for Dolby Digital between the sprocket holes on the soundtracks side of the print. Timecode for DTS is next to Dolby SR optical and SDDS is located on the edge of both sides of the film print.

Dolby SRD in the movie theatres is more compressed than DTS.

[Redneck9]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Yes, there are trailer discs for dts only, however most features contain the DTS information on the actual feature discs and movie prints always have "attached" trailers on the print.

I never had to use the CD-ROMs.

Not all trailers come attached. (Somehow You forgot about updating the trailers every thursday night...) The equipment I used often times wasn't able to find the corresponding track on the disc.

Dolby SRD (Dolby Digital) for cinemas places the information for Dolby Digital between the sprocket holes on the soundtracks side of the print. Timecode for DTS is next to Dolby SR optical and SDDS is located on the edge of both sides of the film print.

Dolby SRD in the movie theatres is more compressed than DTS.

Not when playing a "5 line dolby track"!!! I guarantee 5 line dolby sounds better than compressed dolby. Technically 5 line dolby digital isn't even dolby digital, It's five track analog with the sub matrixed out.

Quad soundtrack prints are a whole new ballgame. I'm betting it costs sooo much more to process a quadtrack print. The going rate for dual track prints was 300,000 USD, that's just what the distributors charged the theater if they destroyed a print. I however have only worked with duel track prints (which contain only DTS and DOLBY) If the DTS were to ever cut out then the stereo from the dolby side would be read.

Come to think of It, there is only one auditorium in my city with a Sony setup. Quadtrack prints haven't even been around for 30 years, whatever dude... Most places are set up for duel. Quad and duel setups wouldn't be interchangeable because you'd have the sound projected onto the screen, the lenses aren't compatible.

(You know what you need to say to end this debate, so just go ahead and say it)

[WiWavelength]

Redneck, I say this not to poke fun, but please quit while you are behind. Both this thread and your other recent thread...

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...92#post7044292

...have become a comedy of errors. You are proof positive that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing because you are taking that little bit of knowledge, then forming incorrect conclusions and spewing misinformation right and left.

I am completely serious when I say that you do not know what you are talking about.

AJ

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

Quad soundtrack prints are a whole new ballgame.

Quad soundtrack prints are not new at all, Warner was one of the very first companies to make all 35mm with a quad format, this was in the late 90's. Fox followed.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

he going rate for dual track prints was 300,000 USD,

Not so, a movie print is about $1500 for a 35mm feature. Does not matter how many formats are on it.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

distributors charged the theater if they destroyed a print.

The distributor never ever charges the theatre for the print.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

Most places are set up for duel. Quad and duel setups wouldn't be interchangeable because you'd have the sound projected onto the screen, the lenses aren't compatible.

You are not sure what you are talking about. The lense has nothing to do with the soundtrack being projected on the screen, the soundtrack is always being projected, an aperture is what blocks out what is being projected on the screen, not the lense.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

Not when playing a "5 line dolby track"!!! I guarantee 5 line dolby sounds better than compressed dolby. Technically 5 line dolby digital isn't even dolby digital, It's five track analog with the sub matrixed out.

If you are referring to 05 Dolby SR vs 10 Dolby Digital SRD than yes, Dolby SR is not digital and is analog, it is also very difficult to hear the difference between the two in a movie cinema. However, it should be noted that SR is four-track vs SRD which is 6 track.

I personally prefer cinema analog over cinema digital.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Redneck, I say this not to poke fun, but please quit while you are behind. Both this thread and your other recent thread...

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...92#post7044292

...have become a comedy of errors. You are proof positive that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing because you are taking that little bit of knowledge, then forming incorrect conclusions and spewing misinformation right and left.

I am completely serious when I say that you do not know what you are talking about.

AJ

I agree.

[Redneck9]

Not so, a movie print is about $1500 for a 35mm feature. Does not matter how many formats are on it.

I was told it cost 2 dollars a foot to process @ a foot and a half per second. they said the prints were worth that. I didn't keep the books...

The distributor never ever charges the theatre for the print. the production company charges 90% of the gross per ticket opening weekend. 70% for the next 2 weeks and 40% after that.

I didn't make the rules, just did what I was told.

You are not sure what you are talking about. The lense has nothing to do with the soundtrack being projected on the screen, the soundtrack is always being projected, an aperture is what blocks out what is being projected on the screen, not the lense.

Exactly I was guessing, I made it clear I've never been around quad tracks. Does the image rests differently on the film?

I've had the conversation IRL asking why our theater wasn't set up for sony, they said it wold be too much work and is not compatible.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

I was told it cost 2 dollars a foot to process @ a foot and a half per second. they said the prints were worth that. I didn't keep the books...

Well you were told wrong, the print is about $1500-$2000 a movie print, it is based on volume. The soundtrack does not cost all that much as everything is printed onto the film along with the image during the printing process.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

the distributor never ever charges the theatre for the print. the production company charges 90% of the gross per ticket opening weekend. 70% for the next 2 weeks and 40% after that.

I didn't make the rules, just did what I was told.

You do not deal with the production company, you deal with the distributor of the film when you want to play the movie ie (Warner releases some movies in the United States while EOne releases the same exact movie up North in Canada). There are two ways of achieving payouts for films, percentage based as well as flat rate. There is also a minimum payment which the theatre has to pay depending on attendance.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

Exactly I was guessing, I made it clear I've never been around quad tracks. Does the image rests differently on the film?
.

If you have ever handled a Warner Bros. or a Fox movie, then yes you have.

The soundtrack data for the SDDS information as well as the soundtrack data for the Dolby Digital data cannot possibly be projected onto the movie screen, in other words, the light from the projector does not pass through the information for SDDS or Dolby Digital. Dolby SR as well as the timecode for DTS are projected however the aperture plate blocks out that image before it it hits the lense. Make any sense?

[Redneck9]

I have never handled a print that had a sony track. It would be useless on the equipment our theater had. (Theater was built and state of the art in 1999)

The soundtrack data for the SDDS information as well as the soundtrack data for the Dolby Digital data cannot possibly be projected onto the movie screen, in other words, the light from the projector does not pass through the information for SDDS or Dolby Digital. Dolby SR as well as the timecode for DTS are projected however the aperture plate blocks out that image before it it hits the lense. Make any sense?

All of the print's I've handled have been the following layout from left to right:

Empty sprockets, DTS timing numbers in sequential order in gold, the movie image, 5 pink tracks,empty sprockets.

I can guess if the movie itself set in a different position on the film then the image would appear cut off due to the aperture being out of place?

LOTR: ROTK did not have a sony track.

you deal with the distributor

That's what I meant.



On the other hand you never got/had to swap out trailers,apparently... Which is weird to me.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

Empty sprockets, DTS timing numbers in sequential order in gold, the movie image, 5 pink tracks,empty sprockets.
.

The DTS timecode is next to the Dolby soundtrack. There is no image between the timecode for dts and the dolby analog information.

[Redneck9]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

The DTS timecode is next to the Dolby soundtrack. There is no image between the timecode for dts and the dolby analog information.

You are speaking regarding Quadtrack prints.

I'm saying if a duel track print were to run through a projector setup to run quadtrack prints the result would be pink lines on the right side.


-BTW-
Sometimes if a television's output scaling is set too large, a person can see the pink sound lines on the right side.

[Redneck9]

The DTS timecode? the small 4 digit number on the left side of the image does not sit next to the 5 line dolby soundtrack.

This is the type of print my theater used up till 2009.

http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_3a.asp

1994: First dual-format film released ('Heaven and Earth' with both DTS and Dolby Digital soundtracks on the same print)

5 track dolby on the right and DTS timecode on the left.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

The DTS timecode? the small 4 digit number on the left side of the image does not sit next to the 5 line dolby soundtrack.

This is the type of print my theater used up till 2009.

http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_3a.asp

1994: First dual-format film released ('Heaven and Earth' with both DTS and Dolby Digital soundtracks on the same print)

5 track dolby on the right and DTS timecode on the left.

Is there something you don't get?

The DTS timecode is not a 4 digit number, DTS timecode cannot be read by the human eye.....it is called timecode or the reader to link up the timcode data to the data on the dts discs in the reader. I have being installing DTS readers for movie theatres since Jurassic Park was released in DTS (originally DTS uses CD-Roms). The DTS timecode is next to the Dolby SR soundtrack...it always has been.

[WiWavelength]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Is there something you don't get?

The DTS timecode is not a 4 digit number, DTS timecode cannot be read by the human eye.....it is called timecode or the reader to link up the timcode data to the data on the dts discs in the reader.

Probably the best way to describe DTS timecode to the uninformed is that it looks like Morse code and is located directly to the right of the SVA optical analog soundtrack.



AJ

[Redneck9]

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Probably the best way to describe DTS timecode to the uninformed is that it looks like Morse code and is located directly to the right of the SVA optical analog soundtrack.

The image you posted is a quadtrack print.(sony,dolby,stereo and dts)

The DTS encoding algorithms aren't the same on dual track prints. I can imagine that quadtrack dts would be more effective in synching with the disc, just because It's setup like that(just by looking at it I would assume an optic reads those and produces a series or clicks which then call on the CD)

Older dual track DTS doesn't look like that, as I've explained.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

The image you posted is a quadtrack print.(sony,dolby,stereo and dts)

The DTS encoding algorithms aren't the same on dual track prints. I can imagine that quadtrack dts would be more effective in synching with the disc, just because It's setup like that(just by looking at it I would assume an optic reads those and produces a series or clicks which then call on the CD)

Older dual track DTS doesn't look like that, as I've explained.

Please stop talking false information. Dts has alwAys been in that location. Quad or dual soundtracks have nothing to do with how well the reader reads the info. You clearly have never worked with a film print.

[Redneck9]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

Please stop talking false information. Dts has alwAys been in that location. Quad or dual soundtracks have nothing to do with how well the reader reads the info. You clearly have never worked with a film print.

No.. gold print numnerical DTS is where the stereo would be on a quadtrack.

For anyone that has a TV that features output scaling can pop in this DVD(Ninja Turtles "green box edition")Which was sourced from a print and clearly see the pink optical pulse tracks on the right side"Which you claim have always been on the left"

I need to go through my collection again, I also have a DVD which if overscaned shows the left side, and what do you know? numbers form the "Original DTS timing format"

How could someone like you not know anything about changing trailers in time for Fridays new releases? seriously.

You probably can't even tell my what ghosting is or how to fix it, or what causes the black bar to show up in the middle of the movie screen.

[Redneck9]

Another question,

Suppose One is working with a print that keeps dropping the DTS. What are their options to fix the sound while the film is rolling?

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

No.. gold print numnerical DTS is where the stereo would be on a quadtrack.

For anyone that has a TV that features output scaling can pop in this DVD(Ninja Turtles "green box edition")Which was sourced from a print and clearly see the pink optical pulse tracks on the right side"Which you claim have always been on the left"

I need to go through my collection again, I also have a DVD which if overscaned shows the left side, and what do you know? numbers form the "Original DTS timing format"

How could someone like you not know anything about changing trailers in time for Fridays new releases? seriously.

You probably can't even tell my what ghosting is or how to fix it, or what causes the black bar to show up in the middle of the movie screen.

Which ninja turtles movie?