few questions about the audio from my 506

[tbizzle]

Ok, when I first set out to buy an audio setup for my HT, I had no idea what I was doing so I went to AVS for advice. I was looking to buy a cheap receiver for my new Polk R50's back then, and the Onkyo 506 was recommended to me. I got a refurb'd one for $160 shipped from Onkyo's site. Not bad just to get my new speakers up and running. But I later found out that the 506 can't decode HD audio, even though my PS3 does.

And I remembered reading blu-ray reviews of certain movies that had awesome sound quality, and thinking "hmm, I don't remember it sounding that good". Take for instance Iron Man or The Matrix movies, they always sounded weak to me on my setup, whereas movies like Live Free Or Die Hard, I Robot, Incredible Hulk, Flight of the Phoenix, etc. sound totally badass. So I looked up the Soundtracks on these movies and they all had DTS HD MA soundtracks, whereas the "weak" ones had Dolby TrueHD.

So I have 2 questions:

1. If I'm not actually hearing these HD soundtracks due to my receiver, what am I hearing? Just a regular Dolby 5.1 like on a DVD?

2. When I get a new receiver, such as Onkyo 805, etc, will I notice a huge difference in the TrueHD sound, since it will be HD instead of whatever I'm hearing now?

Sorry if some of what said is wrong or doesn't make sense, I'm still an audio newb trying to learn. Thanks in advance for any help

[sheedoe]

If your receiver cannot handle pcm via hdmi, what you may be hearing is the lossy DTS or the Dolby digital track. Dts has higher bitrate than dolby digital, so it sounds better.
That explains why you enjoyed the DTS-HD encoded movies more because they also include the core dts (1.5 mbps) sound track.
There's a noticeable improvement in sound when you step up to lossless audio. So my answer is 'Yes' to your second question.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by tbizzle

1. If I'm not actually hearing these HD soundtracks due to my receiver, what am I hearing? Just a regular Dolby 5.1 like on a DVD?

Assuming you are bitstreaming from your player to receiver over an optical or coax connection, you are getting a legacy DD 5.1 track. However, it is encoded at 640 kbps, considerably higher than the 384 kbps normally used on DVD. (DD 5.1 is limited to 448 kbps n DVD, but seldom gets even that much.)

2. When I get a new receiver, such as Onkyo 805, etc, will I notice a huge difference in the TrueHD sound, since it will be HD instead of whatever I'm hearing now?

I wouldn't think so. DD 5.1 at 640kbps is very good. You should be getting great sound right now. Perhaps there's a setup problem with your receiver.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by sheedoe

Dts has higher bitrate than dolby digital, so it sounds better.

You can't simply compare bitrates between Dolby and DTS. They use different techniques for lossy encoding. Dolby's is more efficient and can produce similar sound at lower bitrates.

[sheedoe]

Originally Posted by BIslander

You can't simply compare bitrates between Dolby and DTS. They use different techniques for lossy encoding. Dolby's is more efficient and can produce similar sound at lower bitrates.

So you're saying bitrates does not make a difference? So a DTS-HD 4.5 mbps soundtrack will sound similar to a 640 kbps dolby digital because they are efficient?

[sheedoe]

"In my opinion there are very apparent sonic benefits of DTS over DD especially on audio systems which are refined enough to appreciate the differences. I really enjoy listening to many of the 5.1 DTS audio cd's currently available but wish they had a larger selection. Many of these DTS CD's /DVD-A discs produce excellent and eveloping multi channel surround." by Gene DellaSala - audioholics.com

Look at the pro's and con's between DTS and DD: To quote a few:

For DTS: "Many DTS soundtracks sound richer and more detailed than DD counterpart."
"Superb transfers from originals with excellent frequency response and dynamic range."

For DD: "Dynamics are sometimes lacking due from too much compression."
"Most of these videos suffer from substandard audio quality due to too much compression."

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by sheedoe

So you're saying bitrates does not make a difference? So a DTS-HD 4.5 mbps soundtrack will sound similar to a 640 kbps dolby digital because they are efficient?

The relevant comparison is DTS at it's maximum legacy rate of 1509 kbps and DD 5.1 at it maximum bitrate of 640 kbps. Or, DTS at 754 kbps and DD at 384 kbps, the rates usually used on DVD. Dolby is more efficient and produces similar audio quality at those comparative rates.

But, hey, if you prefer DTS, then listen to it. The DD vs. DTS debate is rather tiresome.

[tbizzle]

Originally Posted by sheedoe

If your receiver cannot handle pcm via hdmi, what you may be hearing is the lossy DTS or the Dolby digital track. Dts has higher bitrate than dolby digital, so it sounds better.
That explains why you enjoyed the DTS-HD encoded movies more because they also include the core dts (1.5 mbps) sound track.
There's a noticeable improvement in sound when you step up to lossless audio. So my answer is 'Yes' to your second question.

awesome, thanks for your help. can't wait to get my new receiver and a new sub

Originally Posted by BIslander

Assuming you are bitstreaming from your player to receiver over an optical or coax connection, you are getting a legacy DD 5.1 track. However, it is encoded at 640 kbps, considerably higher than the 384 kbps normally used on DVD. (DD 5.1 is limited to 448 kbps n DVD, but seldom gets even that much.)

I wouldn't think so. DD 5.1 at 640kbps is very good. You should be getting great sound right now. Perhaps there's a setup problem with your receiver.

I am using Optical as my connection, but not sure about bitstreaming, is there somewhere in my PS3 sound settings where I can check that. I just checked my output settings and these were the options selected:

dolby digital 5.1 ch
dts 5.1 ch
aac
linear pcm 2 ch 44.1 khz
linear pcm 2 ch 88.2 khz
linear pcm 2 ch 176.4 khz
linear pcm 2 ch 48 khz

should I change these?

[sheedoe]

Originally Posted by BIslander

The relevant comparison is DTS at it's maximum legacy rate of 1509 kbps and DD 5.1 at it maximum bitrate of 640 kbps. Or, DTS at 754 kbps and DD at 384 kbps, the rates usually used on DVD. Dolby is more efficient and produces similar audio quality at those comparative rates.

But, hey, if you prefer DTS, then listen to it. The DD vs. DTS debate is rather tiresome.

They may be efficient, but DD is certainly not 2-3 times more efficient than DTS. But don't just take it from me. Listen to the experts.

"However, even if DD is slightly more efficient, it is still not 1.5 / .448 = 3.35 times more efficient."
- http://www.audioholics.com/education...of-the-formats

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by tbizzle

I am using Optical as my connection, but not sure about bitstreaming, is there somewhere in my PS3 sound settings where I can check that.

I'm not familiar with PS3 settings. But, look at your receiver. Does it say it's receiving Dolby Digital? If so, your PS3 is bitstreaming. If it says PCM, then that would be the source of your problem. PCM is limited to stereo over optical.

[BIslander]

Sorry, Sheedoe, I'm not going to play. This ground has been plowed for years and it always leads to the same dead end. I've seen those same quotes many times before. You'll find numerous threads at AVS that get into the issues associated with how Dolby and DTS do lossy encodes. You might find those discussions enlightening.

[sheedoe]

Originally Posted by tbizzle

2. When I get a new receiver, such as Onkyo 805, etc, will I notice a huge difference in the TrueHD sound, since it will be HD instead of whatever I'm hearing now?

Originally Posted by BIslander

I wouldn't think so. DD 5.1 at 640kbps is very good. You should be getting great sound right now. Perhaps there's a setup problem with your receiver.

Originally Posted by BIslander

The relevant comparison is DTS at it's maximum legacy rate of 1509 kbps and DD 5.1 at it maximum bitrate of 640 kbps. Or, DTS at 754 kbps and DD at 384 kbps, the rates usually used on DVD. Dolby is more efficient and produces similar audio quality at those comparative rates.

Sorry, but you just compared DD to True-HD, not me. Since True-HD and DTS-HD are lossless, comparing DTS-HD to DD would be relevant in this case because you made it relevant. So basically you're saying DD (640 kbps) sounds similar to True-HD (~3 mbps). WOW!!

[tbizzle]

Originally Posted by BIslander

I'm not familiar with PS3 settings. But, look at your receiver. Does it say it's receiving Dolby Digital? If so, your PS3 is bitstreaming. If it says PCM, then that would be the source of your problem. PCM is limited to stereo over optical.

yeah it was on PCM, just changed it to Dolby, maybe that will fix the problem. thanks again for the help

edit, just popped in a movie and it went back to PCM, hmmm. oh well, I'll get a new receiver soon so I won't have to worry about some movies sounding weak for very long haha

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by sheedoe

Sorry, but you just compared DD to True-HD, not me. Since True-HD and DTS-HD is lossless, comparing DTS-HD to DD would be relevant in this case because you made it relevant. So basically you're saying DD (640 kbps) sounds similar to True-HD (~3 mbps). WOW!!

Yes, that's true. (I'm not alone in that view, btw.) When you start quoting people about the superiorty of lossless over 640 kbps DD and 1509 kbps DTS, please cite valid scientific double blind comparisons.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by tbizzle

yeah it was on PCM, just changed it to Dolby, maybe that will fix the problem. thanks again for the help

edit, just popped in a movie and it went back to PCM, hmmm. oh well, I'll get a new receiver soon so I won't have to worry about some movies sounding weak for very long haha

That looks like a setup issue on your PS3. A new receiver won't solve that problem. But, when you get a new AVR, you'll need to set up the PS3 to decode and output PCM. With the PS3, PCM is only way to get lossless.

[tbizzle]

Originally Posted by BIslander

That looks like a setup issue on your PS3. A new receiver won't solve that problem. But, when you get a new AVR, you'll need to set up the PS3 to decode and output PCM. With the PS3, PCM is only way to get lossless.

ahh, gotcha. thanks