blu-ray vs hd cam - Blu-ray Forum

insch · 03-06-2009, 07:46 PM

I need to do an important screening of an hd movie I have just finished. It was shot on HD Cam SR at 4.4.4 so pretty high-end. I was going to show it on HD Cam but wondered whether Blu-ray would be up to the job. Does anyone know how they compare?

Thank you.

2themax · 03-07-2009, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insch

I need to do an important screening of an hd movie I have just finished. It was shot on HD Cam SR at 4.4.4 so pretty high-end. I was going to show it on HD Cam but wondered whether Blu-ray would be up to the job. Does anyone know how they compare?

Thank you.

The BD will hold up pretty good with a pro compression tool and someone who knows how to use it. I would still try to have it screened from the HD-Cam SR, but wouldn't worried if it went to BD.

Chevypower · 03-07-2009, 04:28 AM

What 2themax said.

bageleaterkkjji · 03-07-2009, 05:16 AM

what does 4.4.4 mean

Chevypower · 03-07-2009, 05:30 AM

it means Red Green and Blue components are sampled equally. Most consumer digital video formats will sample at 4:2:0. Most high-end and broadcast is 4:2:2. It is designed for efficiency, whereas HDCAM-SR is purely about color quality (4:4:4). Even HDCAM is 4:2:2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

Edit: that article says HDCAM (non SR) records at 3:1:1 - not that it really matters.

insch · 03-07-2009, 07:53 AM

Thanks guys - really helpful. I think its got to be HD Cam then! HD Cam SR is just going to be too expensive for a viewing.

On a related point, I just bought a La Cie Blu-ray writer (d2 professional) for my Mac but have discovered that I can't play Blu-ray discs on it due to no Blu-ray support from Apple. I know this is an old subject but anyone got any advice on pieces of hardware out there to make this work. I know that there might be a route by using Parallels and Windows XP (which I have on my Mac Book Pro) but that's a bit tiresome. Otherwise I can burn Blu-ray on this machine but can't watch what I've burned!

Also, anyone got any thoughts on professional encode vs Toast BD encode. I guess AVC is the way but would be good to know how the Toast encode holds up.

Best

SkantDragon · 03-07-2009, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bageleaterkkjji

what does 4.4.4 mean

In video, pixels are typically not represented as red, green, and blue values. Instead, each pixel has brightness and color.

Representing it this way has certain advantages. It turns out that the human eye isn't so good at perceiving color, and so color can be sampled at a much lower rate without it being very noticable.

So, for instance, the 4:2:0 scheme records brightness for every individual pixel, but color only for each 2x2 block of pixels.

4:2:2 records color for each 2x1 block.

4:4:4 records brightness and color for each individual pixel.

Chevypower · 03-07-2009, 06:23 PM

I would just play your Blu-ray from a regular Blu-ray player. Much easier than trying to get a Mac to do it.

insch · 03-07-2009, 07:07 PM

But then I need to buy a player which I don't have. I was hoping I would get both read and write from this machine - if I buy a player then this writer will become an expensive copying machine for occasional Blu-rays of my film. I need to find out how good the Toast encodes are and how they compare with professional encodes. If they are good enough I can save the cost of the initial encoding of the master Blu-rays and then this machine begins to pay for itself.

Thanks

SkantDragon · 03-08-2009, 01:19 AM

It's really too bad Apple is just letting all of the other manufacturers leave them behind on Blu-ray support. It's going to cause them to lose market share in video editting even faster than they have been.

Unfortunately for you, you're coming face to face with that.

A lot of other people are going to have this same experience, too. It creates pressure to abandon Apple in favor of other video editing alternatives.

Blu-ray is here to stay. Apple can't ignore it now without shooting off more and more of its own toes.

insch · 03-11-2009, 02:45 PM

Does anyone know what frame rate Toast encodes BDs at? My film is at 25p and I wondered what Toast would do with an uncompressed QT file of it. Ideally I'd like it to encode at 24p or 23.976 fps which would work for European + US markets but there doesn't seem to be any control within Toast. Also what would it do with audio - slow it down by 4%? I also have a 5.1 surround soundtrack but not sure how I would include that within Toast.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks.

ckenisell · 03-11-2009, 06:45 PM

What's the length? If it's short enough, you could always perform a 2-pass encode it to VC-1 or AVC at the maximum bit rate. Most viewers won't even be able to tell the difference. Blu-Ray is already a higher standard than MOST people are used to.

insch · 03-11-2009, 07:21 PM

Thanks. It's 42 mins with stereo + 5.1 (ideally) audio.

Do you know what frame rate will Toast encode at though?

Best

ckenisell · 03-11-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insch

Does anyone know what frame rate Toast encodes BDs at? My film is at 25p and I wondered what Toast would do with an uncompressed QT file of it. Ideally I'd like it to encode at 24p or 23.976 fps which would work for European + US markets but there doesn't seem to be any control within Toast. Also what would it do with audio - slow it down by 4%? I also have a 5.1 surround soundtrack but not sure how I would include that within Toast.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks.

I really need to know the entire pipeline. What are you shooting in and in what mode? For instance, the XL-H1a that I use can shoot 1080i, 24F and 30F. (For all intense and purposes, "F" really means "P"). Then, I use Adobe Premiere CS3 (thinking of upgrading to CS4) with a Matrox RT-X2. I set the Premiere project to HD 23.976 FPS and capture the 24F footage (yes, it's a lossy codec, but that's all I can afford right now). I can even do real time color correction with the Matrox plug-ins. When I'm done, I can either export the edited project for Adobe Encore or I can simply import the project to Encore and let Encore encode the video to a Blu-Ray codec (I set it to max bit-rate because they're all short fims . Add a menu if I want, and burn a BD-R. Then, play the BD-R in my PS3.

Oh yeah, everything I do is PC. Not Mac.

If you really want to know what Toast is capable of, I'd check with the formal documentation.

ckenisell · 03-11-2009, 07:44 PM

Toast 10 Titanium or Toast 10 Titanium Pro?

ckenisell · 03-11-2009, 07:59 PM

In this screenshot, I don't see a frame rate. So, I am going to assume that the frame rate remains the same as the input frame rate:

insch · 03-11-2009, 10:57 PM

Thanks guys.

This was shot at 25p, 1920 x 1080 mainly on HD Cam SR at 4.4.4. It was also finished at that resolution on Avid DS. I am currently working with an uncompressed QT file of the finished film. I am currently trying an export (also uncompressed) on QT Pro to change the frame rate to 24p. I'll then try an encode in Toast using that new file.

In answer to another question, I'm pretty sure this is not the Pro version of Toast - nothing says it is - would the Pro version help in this case?

All the best

ckenisell · 03-12-2009, 02:45 PM

You can see the differences between the Pro and the non-Pro here:
http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/toast/default.html Click on the "Compare" between the two product boxes.

insch · 03-12-2009, 02:59 PM

Thanks for that. As far as I can see the greatest benefit of the Pro version might be that I can attach my 5.1 mix, if I read this rightly: "Create professional custom soundtracks for movies and slideshows".

Bobby Henderson · 03-12-2009, 04:12 PM

FWIW, both Mac and PC versions of Adobe Production Premium CS4 will do Blu-ray authoring.

03-06-2009, 07:46 PM	#1
insch Junior Member Member since:Mar 2009	blu-ray vs hd cam I need to do an important screening of an hd movie I have just finished. It was shot on HD Cam SR at 4.4.4 so pretty high-end. I was going to show it on HD Cam but wondered whether Blu-ray would be up to the job. Does anyone know how they compare? Thank you.

03-07-2009, 05:30 AM	#5
Chevypower Special Member Member since:Feb 2008	it means Red Green and Blue components are sampled equally. Most consumer digital video formats will sample at 4:2:0. Most high-end and broadcast is 4:2:2. It is designed for efficiency, whereas HDCAM-SR is purely about color quality (4:4:4). Even HDCAM is 4:2:2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling Edit: that article says HDCAM (non SR) records at 3:1:1 - not that it really matters. Last edited by Chevypower; 03-07-2009 at 05:35 AM.

03-07-2009, 07:53 AM	#6
insch Junior Member Member since:Mar 2009	Thanks guys - really helpful. I think its got to be HD Cam then! HD Cam SR is just going to be too expensive for a viewing. On a related point, I just bought a La Cie Blu-ray writer (d2 professional) for my Mac but have discovered that I can't play Blu-ray discs on it due to no Blu-ray support from Apple. I know this is an old subject but anyone got any advice on pieces of hardware out there to make this work. I know that there might be a route by using Parallels and Windows XP (which I have on my Mac Book Pro) but that's a bit tiresome. Otherwise I can burn Blu-ray on this machine but can't watch what I've burned! Also, anyone got any thoughts on professional encode vs Toast BD encode. I guess AVC is the way but would be good to know how the Toast encode holds up. Best Last edited by insch; 03-07-2009 at 08:05 AM.

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03-07-2009, 04:28 AM	#3
Chevypower Special Member Member since:Feb 2008	What 2themax said.

03-07-2009, 05:16 AM	#4
bageleaterkkjji Blu-ray Ninja Top contributor Member since:Sep 2007 Location:in the garbage 4K collection:59 Blu-ray collection:322 Blu-ray reviews:3 Trading Score:4	what does 4.4.4 mean

03-07-2009, 06:23 PM	#8
Chevypower Special Member Member since:Feb 2008	I would just play your Blu-ray from a regular Blu-ray player. Much easier than trying to get a Mac to do it.

03-07-2009, 07:07 PM	#9
insch Junior Member Member since:Mar 2009	But then I need to buy a player which I don't have. I was hoping I would get both read and write from this machine - if I buy a player then this writer will become an expensive copying machine for occasional Blu-rays of my film. I need to find out how good the Toast encodes are and how they compare with professional encodes. If they are good enough I can save the cost of the initial encoding of the master Blu-rays and then this machine begins to pay for itself. Thanks

03-08-2009, 01:19 AM	#10
SkantDragon Active Member Member since:Oct 2007	It's really too bad Apple is just letting all of the other manufacturers leave them behind on Blu-ray support. It's going to cause them to lose market share in video editting even faster than they have been. Unfortunately for you, you're coming face to face with that. A lot of other people are going to have this same experience, too. It creates pressure to abandon Apple in favor of other video editing alternatives. Blu-ray is here to stay. Apple can't ignore it now without shooting off more and more of its own toes.

03-11-2009, 02:45 PM	#11
insch Junior Member Member since:Mar 2009	Does anyone know what frame rate Toast encodes BDs at? My film is at 25p and I wondered what Toast would do with an uncompressed QT file of it. Ideally I'd like it to encode at 24p or 23.976 fps which would work for European + US markets but there doesn't seem to be any control within Toast. Also what would it do with audio - slow it down by 4%? I also have a 5.1 surround soundtrack but not sure how I would include that within Toast. Any help appreciated. Thanks.

03-11-2009, 06:45 PM	#12
ckenisell Blu-ray Samurai Top contributor Member since:Jun 2007 Location:Round Rock, TX Blu-ray collection:368 Blu-ray reviews:3	What's the length? If it's short enough, you could always perform a 2-pass encode it to VC-1 or AVC at the maximum bit rate. Most viewers won't even be able to tell the difference. Blu-Ray is already a higher standard than MOST people are used to.

03-11-2009, 07:21 PM	#13
insch Junior Member Member since:Mar 2009	Thanks. It's 42 mins with stereo + 5.1 (ideally) audio. Do you know what frame rate will Toast encode at though? Best

03-11-2009, 07:44 PM	#15
ckenisell Blu-ray Samurai Top contributor Member since:Jun 2007 Location:Round Rock, TX Blu-ray collection:368 Blu-ray reviews:3	Toast 10 Titanium or Toast 10 Titanium Pro?

03-11-2009, 07:59 PM	#16
ckenisell Blu-ray Samurai Top contributor Member since:Jun 2007 Location:Round Rock, TX Blu-ray collection:368 Blu-ray reviews:3	In this screenshot, I don't see a frame rate. So, I am going to assume that the frame rate remains the same as the input frame rate:

03-11-2009, 10:57 PM	#17
insch Junior Member Member since:Mar 2009	Thanks guys. This was shot at 25p, 1920 x 1080 mainly on HD Cam SR at 4.4.4. It was also finished at that resolution on Avid DS. I am currently working with an uncompressed QT file of the finished film. I am currently trying an export (also uncompressed) on QT Pro to change the frame rate to 24p. I'll then try an encode in Toast using that new file. In answer to another question, I'm pretty sure this is not the Pro version of Toast - nothing says it is - would the Pro version help in this case? All the best

03-12-2009, 02:45 PM	#18
ckenisell Blu-ray Samurai Top contributor Member since:Jun 2007 Location:Round Rock, TX Blu-ray collection:368 Blu-ray reviews:3	You can see the differences between the Pro and the non-Pro here: http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/toast/default.html Click on the "Compare" between the two product boxes.

03-12-2009, 02:59 PM	#19
insch Junior Member Member since:Mar 2009	Thanks for that. As far as I can see the greatest benefit of the Pro version might be that I can attach my 5.1 mix, if I read this rightly: "Create professional custom soundtracks for movies and slideshows".

03-12-2009, 04:12 PM	#20
Bobby Henderson Power Member Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Oklahoma Blu-ray collection:96 Blu-ray reviews: 12	FWIW, both Mac and PC versions of Adobe Production Premium CS4 will do Blu-ray authoring.

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