How Do We Enlighten people to False 1080P Upscale/Upconverts?

[coachD]

This is my first thread and I tried to search for one along these same lines, but couldn't find it.

I was looking thru several ads this Sunday and I saw a few stores like Wal-Mart that feature DVD Upscalers or Up-Converters with HDMI connections that claim to produce a 1080P display.

The average guy on the street sees these cheap DVD players that sell for way less than $100 and THEY THINK THEY ARE GOING TO GET A TRUE HD DISPLAY! Why do they need to go Blu?

While the main battle that we are in is Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, these cheap upconverts & up-scalers pose a threat to the success of Blu-Ray because the average joe will think upconverters are the way to go!

As much luck as I am having at work getting people to Go Blu (5 co-workers have bought PS3s in the past two months), I still have a few associates who think they are getting HD with a cheap upconverter!

What defense can I use to fight this type of thinking?

[Kirsty_Mc]

Here's a little experiment to try on them, follow these steps:-

1. Get a balloon.
2. Partially inflate it.
3. Draw a square on the balloon with a suitable marker... draw some dots in the square.
4. Ask them to count the dots
5. Fully inflate the balloon
6. Now ask them if there are any more dots in the square when it's blown up.

Now you can explain to them that they are getting no higher resolution... it's just the same but blown up.

[coachD]

I like the balloon idea! I have tried to explain how BR has 6 TIMES the resolution of regular DVDs. I like math and I explain it to them that way, but some folks are just so stubborn! Seeing is believing!

[ZeeMan84]

Originally Posted by Kirsty_Mc

Here's a little experiment to try on them, follow these steps:-

1. Get a balloon.
2. Partially inflate it.
3. Draw a square on the balloon with a suitable marker... draw some dots in the square.
4. Ask them to count the dots
5. Fully inflate the balloon
6. Now ask them if there are any more dots in the square when it's blown up.

Now you can explain to them that they are getting no higher resolution... it's just the same but blown up.

Good one . Yes these cheap upconverters are probably stopping loads of potential blu-ray buyers. Because most people already have a huge collection of DVDs so when they see that their DVDs will be 1080p to go along with their HDTV, it does make sense for them to go with an upconverter player. On top of that, the DVDs are getting dirt cheap now, especially the older releases being sold for like $4.99, so BD movies price need to be a little lower soon and studio supporting BD should advertise their movies saying, "Buy it on Blu-ray Disc and rent it on DVD" like they used to do for VHS to DVD transition.

[Rup_Muk]

Originally Posted by Kirsty_Mc

Here's a little experiment to try on them, follow these steps:-

1. Get a balloon.
2. Partially inflate it.
3. Draw a square on the balloon with a suitable marker... draw some dots in the square.
4. Ask them to count the dots
5. Fully inflate the balloon
6. Now ask them if there are any more dots in the square when it's blown up.

Now you can explain to them that they are getting no higher resolution... it's just the same but blown up.

Great idea.

But, then there are some skeptics who will say - "but the red balloon with the blown-up dots (the upconverted SD analogy) looks the same as the red balloon meant to represent 1080p on blu-ray". I know of at least one who would say this...

How would you respond??

Rup.

[cartier]

Originally Posted by Rup_Muk

Great idea.

But, then there are some skeptics who will say - "but the red balloon with the blown-up dots (the upconverted SD analogy) looks the same as the red balloon meant to represent 1080p on blu-ray". I know of at least one who would say this...

How would you respond??

Rup.

Sticking with the balloon analogy... you have to explain that each dot represents information, in this case information about picture quality. The balloon that represents Blu-ray has to have six times the number of dots because it has so much more information.

[mystiksuicide]

Originally Posted by Kirsty_Mc

Here's a little experiment to try on them, follow these steps:-

1. Get a balloon.
2. Partially inflate it.
3. Draw a square on the balloon with a suitable marker... draw some dots in the square.
4. Ask them to count the dots
5. Fully inflate the balloon
6. Now ask them if there are any more dots in the square when it's blown up.

Now you can explain to them that they are getting no higher resolution... it's just the same but blown up.

If that doesn't work swallow the helium the ballon has and talk to them in a Donald Duck voice. Hell I can't figure out j6p anymore at times I think they are all brain dead.

[cartier]

Originally Posted by Rup_Muk

Great idea.

But, then there are some skeptics who will say - "but the red balloon with the blown-up dots (the upconverted SD analogy) looks the same as the red balloon meant to represent 1080p on blu-ray". I know of at least one who would say this...

How would you respond??

Rup.

You could also use a different methodology. Take a 8.5x11 piece of paper that has a good amount of text maybe some graphics in a regular size font. This will represent Blu-ray/true 1080p. Using a copier reduce its size to about 16% (1/6 the size) although some copiers will only go as low as 25% but it will still work. Tell him that this reduced image is a DVD image. Then using the reduced image use the copier again but this time increase its size by 600% or 400% if you could only reduce it to 25%. This is to restore it to take up the whole page. Then tell him that this version represents a DVD upscaled to 1080p it fills up the page but is nowhere as clear as the original.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by coachD

What defense can I use to fight this type of thinking?

Ask whether the unit can output _content authored at 1080p_, or insert phrases such as "1080p _native_ video".

They should give way or stare at you uncomprehendingly. Either way you'll have carried your point.

[Rup_Muk]

Originally Posted by cartier

You could also use a different methodology. Take a 8.5x11 piece of paper that has a good amount of text maybe some graphics in a regular size font. This will represent Blu-ray/true 1080p. Using a copier reduce its size to about 16% (1/6 the size) although some copiers will only go as low as 25% but it will still work. Tell him that this reduced image is a DVD image. Then using the reduced image use the copier again but this time increase its size by 600% or 400% if you could only reduce it to 25%. This is to restore it to take up the whole page. Then tell him that this version represents a DVD upscaled to 1080p it fills up the page but is nowhere as clear as the original.

I like this!
Thank you, Cartier.

Rup.

[welwynnick]

My significant and relevant experience is that HD DVD is more likely to suffer from this misunderstanding than blu-ray. I used to moderate the HDTV, and BD and HD players forums at AVF, and I continually had to move threads about up-scaling players to the right place. These were mistakes made people who were firstly interested enough in AV to join a forum, and secondly to stick their hand up with the same recurring question. I think there’s more association between up-scalers and HD DVD than there is with BD. I think this is one of the great advantages with Blu-ray. It’s a clear step removed from what we have now. Our opponents point to similarity and familiarity with DVD, but I think there is too much of that, and it actually works against them.

Nick

[tron3]

A direct comparison would be best, but here is where tact and salesmanship steps in. Don't just say "it doesn't do anything". That sounds like a lie. The average consumer wants to believe it does SOMETHING because it couldn't be sold as such if it did NOTHING. Don't contradict, educate.

Example of what to say:
Sir / Madam / Person just wasting my time, I have seen both. Upscaling does do SOMETHING but it simply can't insert information which isn't there. In short, results vary and in some cases you get a worse picture. Results will vary.

The difference with blu-ray is better than the difference between standard TV and High Def. You'll notice the improvement immediately and never want to go back. Shall we go take a look?

[Corrupteddragon]

Since the average HDTV owner does not have a 1080p display, im not sure it even really matters at this point.

[WickyWoo]

That's a good way Kirsty, I used to use a dollar bill to explain widescreen

(Full bill) This is what a movie like Star Wars looks like in your movie theater, check it next time you go

(fold in half) And this is what happens when they fit it to your TV screen

[HDPlasma]

These upconverts are more than likely hurting HD DVD player sales than Blu-ray player sales. since these upconvert players advertise "Full HD 1080p."
The consumer probably see's "HD" in the advertising and believe it's some sort of HD DVD player that costs less and doesn't need the $19-35 special discs.

Most people are probably thinking "hey, for less than a $100, I can get "Full HD 1080p" on my TV with my regular DVD's and when I have more money, I can get one of those Blu-ray Hi Definition players."

Also, the upconvert players do "Full 1080p" resolution whereas the majority of the HD DVD players sold only do 1080i, which the general consumer sees as less than "Full 1080p."

Why spend $199-299 on a 1080i HD DVD player?

Even if a person doesn't have a 1080p display, when they see 1080i, that's yesterday's technology at today's prices as far as they can tell.

[CptGreedle]

The way I see it, more and more people are going to confuse HD DVD for upscaling DVD, as is apparent with the A2 sales. They will not get the right thing, or they will not be able to play what they want, or whatnot. But they all know that Blu-ray is the best quality, that Blu-ray is HD at its best.
It is more expensive so they know it is the better product, but they cant afford it yet. That is where the intermediate A2 and upscaling DVD players come in.. to fill in the void until they can afford a BD player.

[Quad]

My explanation would be that the best image you are going to get with an upscaled DVD on HDTV wont be any better than on a regular analog set. It will never look as good as a Blu-ray title. They are still great to have if you already own a large DVD collection. I'm glad the PS3 does such a great job with mine.