How many nits do I need for HDR10?

[singhcr]

I am starting to look to get into the UHD game at last. I already have a Dolby Vision compatible receiver, but I need a new TV and UHD player.

I had a CRT 1080i rear projection TV for years and loved it, and I was forced to upgrade when it finally bit the dust a few years ago. My current Panasonic VT60 plasma improved on that with superior detail, color, and even better blacks. I was hoping that OLED would be my next step when getting into 4K, but I am hearing again and again that without a bright enough TV my UHD movies just won't look correct (too dark, etc).

Black levels are extremely important to me and having washed out blacks annoys me more than anything else as color in general suffers with such a display. I know there are high end LCD TVs like the ZD9 that people here like, but even that won't have the same blacks as an OLED. It's just a limitation of the panel technology, just as OLED will probably never have the same light output as an LCD. Assuming it was bright enough to tone map correctly, I'd rather sacrifice a bit of brightness for better blacks than the other way around. I watch my movies in a totally dark room anyway.

Is there an approximate target for what's needed to make HDR10 work? Would a 800-1000 nit TV be enough as some titles are mastered at a 1000 nit level, or do I need to go higher to make the 4000 nit titles look any good? From what I have read LG is coming out with a new OLED panel in 2018 so hopefully that will be helpful for me as they are supposed to be brighter.

It seems that I have to trade off between brightness and black levels when stepping into the world of HDR which is frustrating for me because in the past I never had to do that. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by singhcr

I am starting to look to get into the UHD game at last. I already have a Dolby Vision compatible receiver, but I need a new TV and UHD player.

I had a CRT 1080i rear projection TV for years and loved it, and I was forced to upgrade when it finally bit the dust a few years ago. My current Panasonic VT60 plasma improved on that with superior detail, color, and even better blacks. I was hoping that OLED would be my next step when getting into 4K, but I am hearing again and again that without a bright enough TV my UHD movies just won't look correct (too dark, etc).

Black levels are extremely important to me and having washed out blacks annoys me more than anything else as color in general suffers with such a display. I know there are high end LCD TVs like the ZD9 that people here like, but even that won't have the same blacks as an OLED. It's just a limitation of the panel technology, just as OLED will probably never have the same light output as an LCD. Assuming it was bright enough to tone map correctly, I'd rather sacrifice a bit of brightness for better blacks than the other way around. I watch my movies in a totally dark room anyway.

Is there an approximate target for what's needed to make HDR10 work? Would a 800-1000 nit TV be enough as some titles are mastered at a 1000 nit level, or do I need to go higher to make the 4000 nit titles look any good? From what I have read LG is coming out with a new OLED panel in 2018 so hopefully that will be helpful for me as they are supposed to be brighter.

It seems that I have to trade off between brightness and black levels when stepping into the world of HDR which is frustrating for me because in the past I never had to do that. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

OLED's are generally 600 to 800 nits. They have better blacks because the individual light sources can turn completely off compared to LCD that uses full array back lightning. This is why if you looking at a outer space scene say with individual stars looks amazing comparably to a LCD/LED. The LCD/LED has the advantage in even because they can't do black levels as well they can however display extremely bright scenes as if you need sun glasses. Pick your favorite way to go.

[singhcr]

Thanks, JohnAV. I understand the advantages and disadvantages of OLED, I'm just not sure how bright one needs to be in order to avoid the tone mapping issues many have complained about.

On the Goodfellas thread, for example, many said the image was too dark and crushed but the same people reported a day and night difference when they got a newer TV. That's what I am trying to avoid.

[JohnAV]

See also The State of HDR for Home Theaters
That should help.

[BrownianMotion]

Lots.

[chip75]

If you're watching your content in a dark room I'd suggest an OLED. If you're happy to use bias lighting or watch throughout the day a LCD maybe the thing.

The rule of thumb with tone mapping is you lose detail for brightness (as the detail is clipped away as the display outputs lower peak luminance than the content is mastered at) and you lose brightness to gain detail (as all the detail is tone mapped within the display's limitations).

It's also worth noting that OLEDs are judged slightly differently to LCDs to achieve Ultra HD Premium Certified, as OLEDs can have such a huge contrast ratio compared to LCDs.

[cleeve]

I feel like, outside maybe the ZD9, there isn't a TV out there that's really bright enough for HDR. Just my completely unscientific opinion.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by cleeve

I feel like, outside maybe the ZD9, there isn't a TV out there that's really bright enough for HDR. Just my completely unscientific opinion.

Based on a another parties ZD9 calibration for 10% area, you get 1700 calibrated for D65. Full screen is approx 700. You can max it out on vivid and achieve 1900.

[Aidenag]

I use my c7 in a family room with french doors 2 windows and a skylight and have no issues with hdr content really. Only time i even noticed it being too dark was the scene in wonder woman where they leave the island at night. Beyond that nothings been too dark thus far

[JohnAV]

^ This of course raises the point that a lot are curious about, how much brightness do you actually need.

Here are two examples:

LG OLED: HDR in a bright sun-lit room (65B6D 4K OLED TV) [4K UHD] - YouTube

Sony ZD9 (Z9D) Review vs 2017 OLED TV - YouTube

Now even though his cat video seems a lot better on the ZD9 this video can't portray the brightness level you are exposed to accurately. Yes it is brighter indeed, but long term is your own preference. In movie theaters you'll never see something that can duplicate like looking at the sun. I remembered when RPD were leaving the marketplace and MIT was showing off a display that used lasers, its was extremely bright. Not sure it sold well.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by singhcr

I am starting to look to get into the UHD game at last. I already have a Dolby Vision compatible receiver, but I need a new TV and UHD player.
...
Is there an approximate target for what's needed to make HDR10 work? Would a 800-1000 nit TV be enough as some titles are mastered at a 1000 nit level, or do I need to go higher to make the 4000 nit titles look any good? From what I have read LG is coming out with a new OLED panel in 2018 so hopefully that will be helpful for me as they are supposed to be brighter....

I'm not the expert you were hoping for, but I can tell you what others have said in other threads. When it comes to UHD disc mastering, the 1000 or 4000 nit max is only a 'container' in which the movie resides. In fact, it has been said that Goodfellas only hit about 279 nits maximum inside its container. So, most films have an average nit level for much of the movie, with only certain scenes or areas of a scene hitting higher or even eye searing brightness levels.

Based on your past affinity for plasma displays, I will say most of the other plasma owners have been drawn to the OLED's for their perfect black levels. I tell you this as an LCD owner (Z9D). Your choice of display should be based on your viewing preferences and and room conditions. You sound like an OLED guy to me.

You should consider the 2017 or 2018 LG's, and the Sony A1E (should get a DV update around the end of this year. ). The LG has won the 2 shoot outs that were held this year, and LG makes the raw panels that Sony and Panasonic use to make their consumer OLED displays.

Take a look in the showroom at these sets, but also see if you can play scenes from an actual 4K movie to see how awesome and filmic they can look. I've been watching movies since I was 16, and these 4K discs of classic films look as good or better than a new print did in the 60's, 70's, or 80's. After watching Close Encounters last week, it makes me want a 4k disc for 2001 right now.

Don't get me wrong, new digital films can look awesome too, it's just that most action or Sci-Fi movies have 2K DI's for all the cgi that's used, or the 3D considerations.

So pick a good player like the Oppo 203 (DV), or Sony or Panasonic (both non-DV), or wait for 2018 player models if you want more DV options.

I've been rambling on, so hopefully I didn't bore you or put you to sleep.
'Bon chance' with whatever your choice may be.

[GeneD5]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

OLED's are generally 600 to 800 nits. They have better blacks because the individual light sources can turn completely off compared to LCD that uses full array back lightning. This is why if you looking at a outer space scene say with individual stars looks amazing comparably to a LCD/LED. The LCD/LED has the advantage in even because they can't do black levels as well they can however display extremely bright scenes as if you need sun glasses. Pick your favorite way to go.

This was really well said.

I ended up with an LED that gets super bright. That's my favorite part of the HDR experience; the crazy, bright colorful elements are eye candy to me.

No doubt oleds are beautiful though.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by gkolb

I'm not the expert you were hoping for, but I can tell you what others have said in other threads. When it comes to UHD disc mastering, the 1000 or 4000 nit max is only a 'container' in which the movie resides. In fact, it has been said that Goodfellas only hit about 279 nits maximum inside its container. So, most films have an average nit level for much of the movie, with only certain scenes or areas of a scene hitting higher or even eye searing brightness levels.

Based on your past affinity for plasma displays, I will say most of the other plasma owners have been drawn to the OLED's for their perfect black levels. I tell you this as an LCD owner (Z9D). Your choice of display should be based on your viewing preferences and and room conditions. You sound like an OLED guy to me.

You should consider the 2017 or 2018 LG's, and the Sony A1E (should get a DV update around the end of this year. ). The LG has won the 2 shoot outs that were held this year, and LG makes the raw panels that Sony and Panasonic use to make their consumer OLED displays.

Take a look in the showroom at these sets, but also see if you can play scenes from an actual 4K movie to see how awesome and filmic they can look. I've been watching movies since I was 16, and these 4K discs of classic films look as good or better than a new print did in the 60's, 70's, or 80's. After watching Close Encounters last week, it makes me want a 4k disc for 2001 right now.

Don't get me wrong, new digital films can look awesome too, it's just that most action or Sci-Fi movies have 2K DI's for all the cgi that's used, or the 3D considerations.

So pick a good player like the Oppo 203 (DV), or Sony or Panasonic (both non-DV), or wait for 2018 player models if you want more DV options.

I've been rambling on, so hopefully I didn't bore you or put you to sleep.
'Bon chance' with whatever your choice may be.

Thank you very much. You're not boring me at all, I love learning about this stuff. Your description of 4K UHDs of film makes my mouth water. I just got back from seeing Barry Lyndon for the first time and in 35mm too. The rich color, the creamy highlights, the detail and yes the grain- it's what I love about film and a chance to see that replicated or even exceeded at home is something wonderful indeed.

You are right that my preference is probably going to be OLED. To me the colors of a plasma look very natural and are like a super high end CRT- I'm using a Sony FW900 16:10 CRT for my computer in fact and I love it. I won't get rid of it until 4K HDR OLED monitors are a thing because I just love the rich colors and inky blacks. As you have the flagship LCD TV already, have you had a chance to compare it to an OLED when you were shopping/researching for a TV? Why did you pick that TV? I'm curious.

I will go to a showroom and hopefully there will be a UHD player there for me to use, if not I will have to buy one and try some of the UHD discs I've purchased already. I appreciate the suggestions for a TV and a player. I believe I will wait until next year for more DV enabled players as I waited for a DV capable A/V receiver and TV as well. Even if it isn't popular I want the capability to play it back.

As for the idea of a container, I understand that because something is mastered at 1000 nits doesn't mean the actual content is that bright. But with static metadata the image may be too dark if it's not close enough to the container value. If I get a 1000 nit TV, Goodfellas will look great. But what about a 4000 nit container title? Is it good enough or will I complain that everything's too dark? I guess I just have to compare and pick the best image that I can find.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by GeneD5

This was really well said.

I ended up with an LED that gets super bright. That's my favorite part of the HDR experience; the crazy, bright colorful elements are eye candy to me.

No doubt oleds are beautiful though.

I've never seen digital HDR outside of a Dolby Vision theater and I know that's not as intense as a TV, so I can only imagine what it looks like. It sounds very exciting.

[singhcr]

Originally Posted by Aidenag

I use my c7 in a family room with french doors 2 windows and a skylight and have no issues with hdr content really. Only time i even noticed it being too dark was the scene in wonder woman where they leave the island at night. Beyond that nothings been too dark thus far

Thank you. This is most useful. Have you seen other really dark films like Unforgiven, Star Trek, etc? You haven't noticed the odd colors or extra noise in near black colors that some have complained about?

[singhcr]

JohnAV: Thanks for the videos. I haven't seen the first one but I have seen the cat one. That guy is very articulate about the differences and I learn a lot from him.

[Aidenag]

Originally Posted by singhcr

Thank you. This is most useful. Have you seen other really dark films like Unforgiven, Star Trek, etc? You haven't noticed the odd colors or extra noise in near black colors that some have complained about?

Haven't seen those yet or goodfellas either, but i just picked up Bram Stokers Dracula this week, which i think could easily be the darkest movie released on 4k so far, and it was flat out stunning. I've watched it twice, once at night with all the lights off, and once during the day with lights on, and zero issues at all.

And yeah, no odd colors, zero noise etc. As i said above, only issue ive run into thus far was that one scene from wonder woman was insanely dark to a point of washing things out and making me squint. Which im chalking up to the disc since so many other dark movies ive run through it's paces have had no problems.

Don't get me wrong, the C7 isn't a retina burning atom bomb like some of these new LED tv's are. if your wanting an outdoor tv for your Mexican villa, def not the right choice. But it's been great for me in what i would say is the avg lighting condition living/family room most people have. And dear god, the black levels are just magnificent. It's like a plasma tv mated with a black unicorn and they birthed OLED.

[GeneD5]

Originally Posted by singhcr

I've never seen digital HDR outside of a Dolby Vision theater and I know that's not as intense as a TV, so I can only imagine what it looks like. It sounds very exciting.

It's a lot of fun...I haven't frequently bought so many movies since 1080p blus were initially released. I'm enjoying my tv that much and sell the digital and 1080 blu copies to soften costs.

You can sign up for a Best Buy credit card and get 0% with low monthly payments to jump right in!

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by singhcr

I am starting to look to get into the UHD game at last. I already have a Dolby Vision compatible receiver, but I need a new TV and UHD player.

I had a CRT 1080i rear projection TV for years and loved it, and I was forced to upgrade when it finally bit the dust a few years ago. My current Panasonic VT60 plasma improved on that with superior detail, color, and even better blacks. I was hoping that OLED would be my next step when getting into 4K, but I am hearing again and again that without a bright enough TV my UHD movies just won't look correct (too dark, etc).

Black levels are extremely important to me and having washed out blacks annoys me more than anything else as color in general suffers with such a display. I know there are high end LCD TVs like the ZD9 that people here like, but even that won't have the same blacks as an OLED. It's just a limitation of the panel technology, just as OLED will probably never have the same light output as an LCD. Assuming it was bright enough to tone map correctly, I'd rather sacrifice a bit of brightness for better blacks than the other way around. I watch my movies in a totally dark room anyway.

Is there an approximate target for what's needed to make HDR10 work? Would a 800-1000 nit TV be enough as some titles are mastered at a 1000 nit level, or do I need to go higher to make the 4000 nit titles look any good? From what I have read LG is coming out with a new OLED panel in 2018 so hopefully that will be helpful for me as they are supposed to be brighter.

It seems that I have to trade off between brightness and black levels when stepping into the world of HDR which is frustrating for me because in the past I never had to do that. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

1000 nits minimum. Samsung QLED is the best technology for HDR10 currently.

OLED will catch up eventually but a lot of HDR10 movies simply look too dim on OLED. A simple visit to the UHDBD forum will tell you this, as OLED owners complain many HDR10 Blu rays are much too dim. These owners then have to convert HDR to SDR on their BD player or greatly raise their brightness overall which destroys black level. Samsung QLED doesn't have this issue.

TLDR; Samsung QLED makes most sense for HDR today.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Ruined

1000 nits minimum. Samsung QLED is the best technology for HDR10 currently.

OLED will catch up eventually but a lot of HDR10 movies simply look too dim on OLED. A simple visit to the UHDBD forum will tell you this, as OLED owners complain many HDR10 Blu rays are much too dim. These owners then have to convert HDR to SDR on their BD player or greatly raise their brightness overall which destroys black level. Samsung QLED doesn't have this issue.

TLDR; Samsung QLED makes most sense for HDR today.

Samsung QLED was at the bottom of both the NYC and London 2017 shootouts as far as HDR. That’s a fact. Did you write this in jest?