YCbCr 4:4:4 vs 4:2:0 (Help needed)

[stackerboy99]

Hello,
I currently own a Panasonic UB820 4K Blu-ray player with a Samsung NU6900 4K TV. What 4K/60p Output setting is recommended for playback of the three formats (4K UHD, Blu-ray, DVD)? Setting is on the player.

Available to choose from are:
-4:4:4 (4:4:4/8bit or 4:2:2/12bit)
-4:2:0 (4:2:0/8bit)

If anyone is also able to tell me the difference between the two settings, that’ll help as well.

Thanks,
Dan

[No Name]

Originally Posted by stackerboy99

Hello,
I currently own a Panasonic UB820 4K Blu-ray player with a Samsung NU6900 4K TV. What 4K/60p Output setting is recommended for playback of the three formats (4K UHD, Blu-ray, DVD)? Setting is on the player.

Available to choose from are:
-4:4:4 (4:4:4/8bit or 4:2:2/12bit)
-4:2:0 (4:2:0/8bit)

If anyone is also able to tell me the difference between the two settings, that’ll help as well.

Thanks,
Dan

Head over to this thread:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=305030

[Geoff D]

Do not choose 4:2:0, that mode is designed solely for TVs with older HDMI sockets that can't handle a 600MHz signal.

[edit]

But this is only relating to 4K60 output, i.e. 4K at 60 frames per second, you're going to get very little 'native' content that actually uses this output (unless you use the onboard apps to stream 4K stuff, as the player forces it to 4K60 rather than 4K24). In any case, don't choose 4:2:0.

[KRW1]

I can never get my head around these numbers.

[oddbox83]

I'm useless at maths, but I understand the principle of this. The discs are encoded 4:2:0, same for Video CD right through to 4K as it's an efficient if not lossless method. This is upscaled for display. Basically the higher number refers to the full resolution Y - luminance detail, the lower numbers are compressed Cb and Cr - chroma (colour) channels.

I would say it often doesn't matter and just use an auto option if you have it, but I'd trust that Panasonic player (given how good it is) to make a better job of the chroma upsampling than your TV. Set it at 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 (something tells me some TVs won't accept 4:4:4 unless in PC input mode).

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

I'm useless at maths, but I understand the principle of this. The discs are encoded 4:2:0, same for Video CD right through to 4K as it's an efficient if not lossless method. This is upscaled for display. Basically the higher number refers to the full resolution Y - luminance detail, the lower numbers are compressed Cb and Cr - chroma (colour) channels.

I would say it often doesn't matter and just use an auto option if you have it, but I'd trust that Panasonic player (given how good it is) to make a better job of the chroma upsampling than your TV. Set it at 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 (something tells me some TVs won't accept 4:4:4 unless in PC input mode).

Most TVs will accept 4:4:4 just fine, they just won't show all of that chroma resolution unless in PC mode which I'm sure is what you meant, and that's not a sarcastic dig.

It's an interesting point though re: the Panasonic's upsampling, that given how pretty much every TV rolls off chroma resolution when in the non-PC modes, I wonder if they sharpened up the chroma as drastically as they did to counteract this?

[Pagey123]

Now that bandwidth and storage are not as limited as they once were, I wonder if we will ever get away from ye olde YCbCr 4:2:0 standard for home video? Obviously TVs/panels, though usually reserved for PC mode, are able to accept a 4:4:4 chroma signal, so that part of the display chain is ready. But I am going to guess the cost of changing the rest of the chain vs. the perceived difference to Joe Sixpack is epic lulz.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Pagey123

Now that bandwidth and storage are not as limited as they once were, I wonder if we will ever get away from ye olde YCbCr 4:2:0 standard for home video? Obviously TVs/panels, though usually reserved for PC mode, are able to accept a 4:4:4 chroma signal, so that part of the display chain is ready. But I am going to guess the cost of changing the rest of the chain vs. the perceived difference to Joe Sixpack is epic lulz.

Forget about all the w@nking over HDMI, bandwidth is still crazy limited when it comes to putting this stuff onto a disc, vastly more so when one considers the rise of streaming and their even smaller file sizes. Hence 4:2:0 as a means of compressing content is not going anywhere any time soon. (It's more YCbCr that I'd like to see get dumped, it simply wasn't designed for HDR and is starting to creak a bit.)

TVs have been capable of displaying 4:4:4 unmolested for many years, but it's not prompted anyone into doing anything about it. And that these displays disable a lot of their processing when running in 4:4:4 without any chroma roll off shows how much grunt it still needs in full-fat mode...and, as you said, for what real benefit? Personally I'm pretty danged happy with HD-rez chroma on UHD.

[stackerboy99]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

I'm useless at maths, but I understand the principle of this. The discs are encoded 4:2:0, same for Video CD right through to 4K as it's an efficient if not lossless method. This is upscaled for display. Basically the higher number refers to the full resolution Y - luminance detail, the lower numbers are compressed Cb and Cr - chroma (colour) channels.

I would say it often doesn't matter and just use an auto option if you have it, but I'd trust that Panasonic player (given how good it is) to make a better job of the chroma upsampling than your TV. Set it at 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 (something tells me some TVs won't accept 4:4:4 unless in PC input mode).

Unfortunately, the Panasonic player does not have an auto option. It does have an off option but that then produces a 1080p or 720p signal and NOT a 4K signal to the TV, so I have to choose 4:4:4 or 4:2:2.
Based on the feedback I saw from the forum, though, looks like 4:4:4 might be the best option, but not 100% sure.

[Pagey123]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Forget about all the w@nking over HDMI, bandwidth is still crazy limited when it comes to putting this stuff onto a disc, vastly more so when one considers the rise of streaming and their even smaller file sizes. Hence 4:2:0 as a means of compressing content is not going anywhere any time soon. (It's more YCbCr that I'd like to see get dumped, it simply wasn't designed for HDR and is starting to creak a bit.)

TVs have been capable of displaying 4:4:4 unmolested for many years, but it's not prompted anyone into doing anything about it. And that these displays disable a lot of their processing when running in 4:4:4 without any chroma roll off shows how much grunt it still needs in full-fat mode...and, as you said, for what real benefit? Personally I'm pretty danged happy with HD-rez chroma on UHD.

You'll have to forgive me...I sometimes get all "overly optimistic" about the future from time to time.

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by stackerboy99

Unfortunately, the Panasonic player does not have an auto option. It does have an off option but that then produces a 1080p or 720p signal and NOT a 4K signal to the TV, so I have to choose 4:4:4 or 4:2:2.
Based on the feedback I saw from the forum, though, looks like 4:4:4 might be the best option, but not 100% sure.

I'm sort of feeling around in the dark as I don't have a Panasonic player or a Samsung TV but I'd say just go 4:2:2 then. I doubt you'd see any difference either way, 4:2:2 is just "safer" if you're not 100% sure how your TV is going to handle 4:4:4 and if the options you list are doing exactly as they say, it won't be capping the bit depth at 8-bit (which wouldn't be desirable for 4K discs).

[pbz06]

The 4K/60 settings screen, is only applicable if your disc is 60hz/fps or presumably if you're using built in apps. I actually just set it to off since I only watch 24p movies anyway.

The YbCrCb output you can choose 4:4:4 or 4:2:2. Discs contain 4:2:0 information, and ultimately everything needs to go from that to 4:4:4 and then RGB, so the choices basically mean how much the player does and how much the TV.

I've read that apparently on my A9G, it downsamples 444 back to 422 before converting back and to RGB when in Cinema or Custom picture mode. Apparently only the PC/Graphics picture modes accept 444 untouched.

I can't tell either way, so I set it to 422.

The output always shows 12bit though no matter if I change the feel color to 10bit priority. I'll try Off to see if I can get it to output 422 10bit.

[eddievanhalen]

I own a Sony X-800 M2 player and an LG A series (entry level) 55" OLED set.
The Sony X-800 M2 can output video as 12 bit 4:2:2, 12 bit 4:4:4 and 12 bit RGB.
I find with my set up the 12 bit 4:4:4 setting the most clean, sharper and better looking of the three.

[Jodi]

Between my Pana UB9000 and Sony A9S OLED, I do 4:4:4.

[Jodi]

Originally Posted by KRW1

I can never get my head around these numbers.

So many numbers...so little time.

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

I own a Sony X-800 M2 player and an LG A series (entry level) 55" OLED set.
The Sony X-800 M2 can output video as 12 bit 4:2:2, 12 bit 4:4:4 and 12 bit RGB.
I find with my set up the 12 bit 4:4:4 setting the most clean, sharper and better looking of the three.

The M2 probably having the better chroma processing than the cut-down LG A-series.

In general, I'd still say Sony's image processing will almost always better an equivalent spec LG model.

I still think, given the discs are 4:2:0, 4:4:4 is maybe more placebo than anything else and all the good stuff happens even upsampled to 4:2:2. If your gear can handle full fat though, why the hell not?

[DavePS3]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Most TVs will accept 4:4:4 just fine, they just won't show all of that chroma resolution unless in PC mode which I'm sure is what you meant, and that's not a sarcastic dig.

It's an interesting point though re: the Panasonic's upsampling, that given how pretty much every TV rolls off chroma resolution when in the non-PC modes, I wonder if they sharpened up the chroma as drastically as they did to counteract this?

Both the 820 and 9000 have a chroma sharpness adjustment option.

[bga84]

Possibly a stupid question (sorry) but I have a Sony XH950 connected to the Oppo 203. If we need to select the Graphics of Game picture mode to get unmolested 4:4:4, what does that mean for Dolby Vision content? Only have the choice of their DV modes.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by bga84

Possibly a stupid question (sorry) but I have a Sony XH950 connected to the Oppo 203. If we need to select the Graphics of Game picture mode to get unmolested 4:4:4, what does that mean for Dolby Vision content? Only have the choice of their DV modes.

DV gets sent automatically as 4:2:2 12-bit in most cases.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DavePS3

Both the 820 and 9000 have a chroma sharpness adjustment option.

I know. Their default state for chroma is to heavily oversharpen it, much more so than their previous BD generation players. I wondered why this is.