New Speakers Vs Vintage Speakers

[prerich]

As Beta Man has often stated - speakers can last up to 20 years and beyond. Also, taking into consideration that companies that are traditionally non-high-end are buying high-end companies - what does that say for the speaker market?

I can remember when Infinity and Polk made true High-end speakers. When Arnie left Infinity - with the exception of the Preludes, they exited the high-end market (don't get me wrong - Infiinty makes some fiine products - but nothing like what they made in their heyday of the 1980's). D&M (owners of Marantz,Denon, Snell, Boston Acoustics) now faces the same thing - possibly being bought out by Kenwood of all things! Acoustic Research used to sell high-end products and now they are reduced to cables and computer speakers. Even Martln Logan's making "lifestyle" changes!

To get to my point, if you have vintage - grade A speakers, and replacement parts are still available, doesn't it make sense to stay with a high performance speaker that''s 20 years old rather than buy a new speaker that doesn't perform nearly as well? The mid high - to high-end is being usurped by consumer level gear. The PS3, receivers getting the newest codecs before pre/pros, and other trends are a sure sign of that. People have the latest tech, but their speakers are suspect.

I for one admire people who still use vintage speakers instead of some of the new stuff (unless that new stuff is put out by a truly committed high-end company such as B&W, Focal, Revel ect.). Early Bostons kill new ones, Snell models designed by Peter Snell (namely the E/E-II,J/JII, and the original K) were bought by Audio-Note and sell for thousands more (The AN-E Sogon base off of the Snell E sells for $125,000)! There was something to these older speakers that was just right. I think Bose marketing and it's lifestyle focus has caused the industry to shift - speakers should look good (even if they don't sound as well). People in the U.S. are focused on appearances (speakers that sound ok but look great, vice speakers that sound awesome but look plain or even ugly).

I haven't found a new speaker outside of the high to ultra high end that I really like - that's why I stick with my vintage models and will put there performance up against anything - even some new high-end models. Give me a plain or even ugly, awesome sounding vintage speaker over a beautiful, ok or decent sounding new speaker any day. I do most of my listening and Movie watching in the dark anyway!

What do you think, chime in and let me know - whether your are for or against

[Beta Man]

I think I should have jumped on those Thiels I was looking at

Although I purchased new speakers within the past 4 months or so (B&W 705s, 703s, HTM7, DS7s, 686's ) I looked, and auditioned several vintage speakers that shops took in on consignment.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

I think I should have jumped on those Thiels I was looking at

Although I purchased new speakers within the past 4 months or so (B&W 705s, 703s, HTM7, DS7s, 686's ) I looked, and auditioned several vintage speakers that shops took in on consignment.

Ahhh, Consignment shops...they can be an audio lovers goldmine!

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by prerich

Ahhh, Consignment shops...they can be an audio lovers goldmine!

not consignment shops though.... I was looking at HT stores that took trades

[HDJK]

I totally agree. I'll stick with my Klein&Hummels (over 20 years old) for many years to come. The only alternatives (that would actually sound better) are way out of my budget. Sure, they look used and old, but they sound

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

not consignment shops though.... I was looking at HT stores that took trades

Ditto

[Woody]

There are MANY manufacturers who arent what they used to be, almost too many to count.

The problem with "vintage" speakers tends to be 3 things IMO.

1. Just like everything else technology improves. The longer a good company does things, the better they get at it. Which means driver technology, crossover technology, cabinet design/engineering, speaker array technology, etc. Also the actual materials used in creating all of those elements improve.

2. Speakers and speaker design were directly impacted by the sources available at the time of their creation. Yes a good speaker will sound good regardless of the source medium, but if a speaker was designed/engineered 30-40 years ago guess what, it was designed to recreate an album. Many audiophiles still listen to LPs exclusively because of the "analog" sound being more pleasing to the human ear, and going through no digital processing at all. They happen to be correct, however the dynamic range on an album has a much lower ceiling than say a CD.

That being said a 30-40 year old speaker is going be designed to best reproduce the sound coming from an album, which doesnt mean its dynamic range is necessarily compromised, but it does mean that higher frequencies are not going to get the "attention" they will get in current higher-end speakers.

3. Age. Just like anything, the materials in the crossovers may begin oxidizing/corroding a bit depending on how they have been used. Many older woofer surrounds begin decaying. Dust gathers on all of the external drivers/cabinets/speaker terminals.

All of that being said, a musical speaker is a musical speaker no matter how old it is. What you will find in comparing "vintage" speakers to well made ("expensive" if you will) current speakers are often subtleties, better refinement, better imaging, clearer vocals, more detailed, a larger soundstage, etc.

This is all comparing old expensive speakers to new expensive speakers (apples to apples).

This is not comparing old expensive speakers to new inexpensive speakers. Lots of old expensive speakers will sound better and "more musical" than new inexpensive speakers regardless of technology advancements, because of build quality/driver quality/crossover quality/poor engineering.

[Scooby Blu]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

I think I should have jumped on those Thiels I was looking at

Although I purchased new speakers within the past 4 months or so (B&W 705s, 703s, HTM7, DS7s, 686's ) I looked, and auditioned several vintage speakers that shops took in on consignment.

705's look bad ass ! http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1098

I had some old Polks I paid 850 a pair for back in 88. Still have them but I always want the latest and greatest !

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by Scooby Blu

705's look bad ass ! http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1098

I had some old Polks I paid 850 a pair for back in 88. Still have them but I always want the latest and greatest !

yeah... I had to find something that looked, and sounded good, since my wife would veto any non-asthetically pleasing speakers (she wanted small, unobtrusive speakers) I got the 705s, 703s, and HTM7 in the Rosenut which looks GREAT, (wenge for the 686s, and black for the DS7s)

That link you put up is for the 703s though.... I had some pictures up on the "Home Theater Pics" thread before I got the DS7s, and 703s.... I was using the 686s as surrounds, with the 705s/HTM7 up front..... well... a month later the upgrade bug bit me...... The rest is history!

I also had some "Unfortunate" pictures up when the nanny's kid poked out my tweeters (3 of them so-far!!!!!) but all have been replaced, I have a great relationship with my local HT shop thankfully! I actually have black electrical tape holding on the plastic tweeter grill covers now..... kinda jankety looking, but I haven't lost another tweeter yet!!!!!!!


EDIT::::::::

Sorry to hi-jack....

[Scooby Blu]

poked out my tweeters (3 of them so-far!!!!!) Faint. Out cold !

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

EDIT::::::::

Sorry to hi-jack....

That's quite alright

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Woody

There are MANY manufacturers who arent what they used to be, almost too many to count.

The problem with "vintage" speakers tends to be 3 things IMO.

1. Just like everything else technology improves. The longer a good company does things, the better they get at it. Which means driver technology, crossover technology, cabinet design/engineering, speaker array technology, etc. Also the actual materials used in creating all of those elements improve.

2. Speakers and speaker design were directly impacted by the sources available at the time of their creation. Yes a good speaker will sound good regardless of the source medium, but if a speaker was designed/engineered 30-40 years ago guess what, it was designed to recreate an album. Many audiophiles still listen to LPs exclusively because of the "analog" sound being more pleasing to the human ear, and going through no digital processing at all. They happen to be correct, however the dynamic range on an album has a much lower ceiling than say a CD.

That being said a 30-40 year old speaker is going be designed to best reproduce the sound coming from an album, which doesnt mean its dynamic range is necessarily compromised, but it does mean that higher frequencies are not going to get the "attention" they will get in current higher-end speakers.

3. Age. Just like anything, the materials in the crossovers may begin oxidizing/corroding a bit depending on how they have been used. Many older woofer surrounds begin decaying. Dust gathers on all of the external drivers/cabinets/speaker terminals.

All of that being said, a musical speaker is a musical speaker no matter how old it is. What you will find in comparing "vintage" speakers to well made ("expensive" if you will) current speakers are often subtleties, better refinement, better imaging, clearer vocals, more detailed, a larger soundstage, etc.

This is all comparing old expensive speakers to new expensive speakers (apples to apples).

This is not comparing old expensive speakers to new inexpensive speakers. Lots of old expensive speakers will sound better and "more musical" than new inexpensive speakers regardless of technology advancements, because of build quality/driver quality/crossover quality/poor engineering.

I agree apples to apples the true new high-end stuff is great, but like you said - a vintage expensive system against a new inexpensive system - the old one wins hands down.

P.S. if a person has vintage gear - you had better get all of the replacement parts that you can (to include crossovers). I learned the hard way with my Snell's! Just glad to get them back up, and now I collect parts galore, for each of my vintage speakers - on the cheap. Good post!

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Scooby Blu

705's look bad ass ! http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1098

I had some old Polks I paid 850 a pair for back in 88. Still have them but I always want the latest and greatest !

It's alright to get the latest and greatest as long as you are really getting the greatest. And yes the 700 series is very nice (they are one of the few traditional High-end companies that hasn't fallen to economic and marketing pressure).

[Scooby Blu]

hi jacker as well. Sorry.Back to topic. I know how hard it is to give up on my vintage speakers so I tell my self I will keep them for an audio room. However, I think the advances that have been put forth in the last 20 years has been by quantum leaps indeed. Nolstagia vs. New.

[SquidPuppet]

My 1983 models

Infinity RS3B's with Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon....

Those were the days...

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

My 1983 models

Infinity RS3B's with Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon....

Those were the days...

These can STILL be the days If you've got them, why not use them!

[Lucy Diamond]

I'm always on here talking about the magic of Paradigms, and honestly love my speakers, but the pure fact of the matter is that my mother's pair of BMI's from the 60's blow anything away.

They just have this warm creamy tone to them that delivers everytime with almost no adjustments to any controls.

By the way, you guys can get Theiles through Mesa/Boogie. They are known for guitar amps and cabs, but they also make Audiophile grade integrated tube amps for home listening. They have special speaker cabs for guitar that feature the Theile design and I'm sure they can be converted. They'd be about 8ohm for guitar work.

Maybe check that out.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

These can STILL be the days If you've got them, why not use them!

Well...there were some other things in my life that made "those" days special. Namely, a body that wasnt as busted up as it is now, and some very attractive and friendly young lady friends

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

These can STILL be the days If you've got them, why not use them!

Beta Man is right! RS IIIB's?!!!! Excellent sonics (takes juice to run them but hey)! If the foams are fine or replaced, I'd put them up against a lot of speakers right now!

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by prerich

Beta Man is right! RS IIIB's?!!!! Excellent sonics (takes juice to run them but hey)! If the foams are fine or replaced, I'd put them up against a lot of speakers right now!

Thats right baby. Replaced the foams a couple times. These speakers make it very hard for me to shop for new stuff. So much of the new stuff, many brands, just dont sound natural. People freak out when they listen to them, know how much they cost, and when they learn they were designed in the 1970's.

Bought them new when I was 23-24 living in an apartment....very difficult to listen to Queen, Aerosmith etc. without being evicted.