When enthusiast sites fail to show any enthusiasm...

[Grubert]

All enthusiast sites share some common goals: to share information about the hobby or activity that they discuss; to discuss the current and future developments; and to increase awareness and adoption.

Now that the format war is over, I was expecting all enthusiast sites to stand by such common goals. Not so: some are still distinctly skeptical, voicing yet again the arguments that BD doesn't have enough appeal and/or is too expensive and/or will be superseded by downloads. All of them points which have merit, but it is definitely awkward to hear them from the advocates – especially when they don't even balance that with the strengths of the format.

Just compare two opinion articles published recently. The first is an article published on Home Media Magazine and written by "Home Theater Forum staff" (actual author unnamed):
Blu-ray's Battle Has Only Just Begun. The second is an article by Dan Ramer, DVD File: Blu-ray Disc Report Card

These articles show very disparate views of the current situation. I have looked at the main areas of concern.

A. Better audio and video are not good enough (or How I Learned to Stop Caring about Quality and Love Upconverting)

The HTF article mentions the 'super high-quality audio and video' nearly in passing, which is something unusual for the administrators of a site that is constantly looking for the best in audio and video quality.

On the other hand, the dvdfile article is much more positive: the combination of "the highest bit rate of any high definition content delivery vector on the market (and the storage capacity to back it up)" and particularly uncompressed audio tracks "really draws the viewer into the onscreen drama and action; the visual and audible fidelities make the presentation more compelling, more involving, and more emotional."

In fact, some of the more respected members of HTF seem to contradict the point made by its staff. Lead example is motion picture archivist Robert A. Harris has posted multiple threads on the best releases on Blu-ray (and HD DVD), repeatedly stating that a good Blu-ray disc "perfectly reproduces the film as it was meant to be seen in theatres" decades ago and gives us the opportunity of see the equivalent of watching at home a 35mm print struck from the original negative.

Even the editor of Home Media Magazine, Stephanie Prange, admits to having become a hi-def snob and she makes some excellent points. She previously was satisfied with upconverted DVDs. But now she sees "subtle differences" between the upconverted DVD and high-definition discs. So do her family, and consciously stay away from DVD.



B. Blu-ray players and movies are still too expensive (or I'd Buy That - for a Dollar)

1. Hardware price

The HTF article states that "with […] full-profile standalone players costing $500 (all added to the price of an HDTV), the format is strictly for eager enthusiasts." I could address the disingenuousness of again not counting the PS3, and disregarding anything below profile 2.0, but I'm not going there now. I'll just quote Stephanie Prange again:

Originally Posted by Stephanie Prange

I want everything to look great on a TV for which I paid several thousand dollars. Why would I pay good money for the in-wall speaker setup, the mounting, the receiver, only to get a DVD picture that is just a little better than what I get on the analog TV? This is the realization that I believe most HDTV buyers will have at one point or another.

I'm not a hardware salesman, but it is pretty obvious that if you have managed to get somebody to drop $2,000 on a new big telly, you can tell him that they won't be enjoying its new gear to its fullest unless it is fed with 1st quality material, which only a next-gen disc player can offer, and it is only 1/5 of the main purchase (insert hard-sell talk here).

Interestingly, the dvdfile article doesn't even mention player price as something that has to be worked on. Only player operation, firmware updates and profiles are discussed as issues.

2. Software price

The HTF article states that with the retail pricing of "some bare-bones discs" around $40, the format is strictly for eager enthusiasts. Firstly, that is hardly a representative sample: for each $40 bare-bones disc on shelves you can find three $30 discs with substantial extras.

Let's look at an upcoming title: Warner's I Am Legend. You have the following options:

- Single-disc DVD, few extras. List price $28.98
- Two-disc SE DVD, lots of extras. List price $34.99
- Blu-ray, lots of extras. List price $35.99

So for $1 over the special edition, you get a release with the same extras, and hidef video and audio. Is that unreasonable?

That complaint is all the more unreasonable when you look at all the adulation studios such as The Criterion Collection receive for their $40 DVD releases.

Again, dvdfile doesn't mention prices as a factor.

C. PiP and Web (or Plug Me into the Ozone, Baby!)

Both sites emphasize the need for full-profile specification. Even dvdfile mentions that Blu-ray Disc will "finally catch up with where HD DVD was when it was first introduced." However, the dvdfile article mentions a study where "only 30% of DVD viewers care about supplements." If that is the case, will they now care about PiP, or downloading on their players? None of the articles discuss that.

D. Looking ahead (or Future Events such as These Will Affect You in the Future)

The dvdfile has a clear view of its mission now that the war is over:

Originally Posted by dvdfile

Now that the war is over, I find little value in reporting the aftermath. HD DVD deep discounts, fire sales, Microsoft discontinuing the Toshiba-manufactured Xbox external HD DVD drive… these are of less value than returning to what this site has done for over a decade. Proselytize a very worthy format, which, with Blu-ray Disc, finally is capable of delivering the motion picture theater experience to the home. And provide constructive criticism that we hope will help that format improve going forward.

On the other hand, the HTF article only puts forward a grim vision of the future for Blu-ray, and an apparent intention to continue to stay in the sidelines:

Originally Posted by HTF

For now the format’s future is still uncertain, and the eyes of many will be closely scrutinizing its direction over the coming months. Any wrong step could still see it consigned to the scrap heap of dead formats that have tried valiantly and failed. Any doubts? Just ask Toshiba.

1. The download factor

The dvdfile doesn't address downloads. The HTF article insists that Blu-ray has only "a brief window to succeed thanks to the hovering threat of cheap high-definition Web downloads." There are some generalizations and assumptions in that claim, inasmuch as we don't know when downloads will materialize, whether they will be indeed "cheap" or what quality will they offer (which is something an enthusiast site should care about).

Incidentally, that's a little strange, considering the complaints downloads received on that very site, such as the complaints about Radiohead releasing a low-quality MP3 version of its latest album (even though it was a "you-choose-the-price" offer).

Conclusion (or I Want No One Else to Succeed)

It comes as no surprise that the sites which preferred Blu-ray six months ago continue to believe in its success. However, it is disappointing to see sites going from neutrality/thinly-veiled-allegiance-while-professing-neutrality (take your pick) to apathy and passive resistance. I won't be looking to such sites for Blu-ray discussion.

[Blaumann]

Thank you for this comparison.

There is still a lot of Anti-Blu-ray propaganda going on and at this point i don't know why. I can understand up to a certain point why someone would prefer HD DVD, if there is a choice between two formats. I was purple, even leaning to the red side because of the region coding, throughout the format war. But this new trend of dissing Blu-ray just for the sake of it is just really p!ssing me off.

Why is there still the need for those obviously not interested in Blu-ray to predict a certain doom of the format? Why don't they just lay back and watch, if it happens (which it will not)? What are the benefits from angst-spreading now?

[Icemage]

Give it time. A quick look around most of the HD forums will still show a very visible number of people who are still bitter about the demise of HD DVD. This, too, shall pass.

For the enthusiast sites which have not been particularly neutral nor favorable to Blu-ray... they'll come around, or get left in the dust.

The writing is already on the wall. Blu-ray does indeed have a comfortable window of opportunity to establish itself, and it doesn't have to happen at light speed. Most of the people who are bitter aren't early adopters; they're mid-adopters who were brought in off the sidelines by the allure of artificially commoditized pricing. They'll get over it once the Blu-ray hardware normalizes down to $200.

If we don't see some progress over the next year or two for Blu-ray, that would be an issue, but it's far too early for anyone to be predicting doom and gloom at this juncture. Let's see what the combined marketing might of the BDA can do.

[NutsAboutPS3]

Originally Posted by Blaumann

Why is there still the need for those obviously not interested in Blu-ray to predict a certain doom of the format? Why don't they just lay back and watch, if it happens (which it will not)? What are the benefits from angst-spreading now?

Because Toshiba will make more profit if people keep buying DVDs rather than Blu-rays. Hence them spreading their FUD that upconverting is the way forward and there is no quality advantage for Blu-ray.

Personally I think the upconverting thing is hilarious. Nobody ever claims you don't need a 12MP camera because you can just upconvert a 2MP image in photoshop, but that is precisely what Toshiba are claiming they can do. If you can multiply the resolution by 6 and give the same result as a native image of the higher resolution, what is stopping you from doing it again, and again, and again? If it were possible to do such a thing, you would be able to create gigapixel images from a 2MP camera, but IT CAN'T BE DONE. That is why CSI is fiction not reality when you see them endlessly zooming in on images.

[dobyblue]

I was hoping you'd write something like this Grubert - bloody great post!

[HDJK]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I was hoping you'd write something like this Grubert - bloody great post!

+1

And how did you get that Blu-ray Jedi added to your profile?

[Seretur]

A brilliant argument, Grubert.

In my eyes, HTF has long lost any semblance of credibility in the next-gen format issues, with their passive-aggressive stance towards Blu-ray that often bordered on bullying. I was as surprised as you were to see them spread so much fear, uncertainty and doubt (...hey, that sounds familiar) on the pages of as respected a publication as HMM -- leveraging their past glories, no doubt -- and I hoped someone would take them to task for this dishonorable act.

And I'm sure their bitterness will eventually go away, but I just won't care.

On the other hand, Ramer is quickly emerging as one of the most respectable online enthusiasts.

[degas]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I was hoping you'd write something like this Grubert - bloody great post!

I agree, excellent post Grubert!

[Grubert]

MatrixS2000,

Not to mention that it is a self-defeating argument - especially in connection with the upconverting factor:

If you think downloads will succeed, and that upconverting SD gives you something nearly as good as HD, the obvious conclusion is that the public is best served by downloading SD (such as -ahem- p2p) and upconverting it to HD. Great success!

[savage1984]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I was hoping you'd write something like this Grubert - bloody great post!

+1 An excellent post. And unlike many posts where I get turned off by the fancy lingo, I was fully engaged the entire time. Thanks

[Canada]

Originally Posted by NutsAboutPS3

Because Toshiba will make more profit if people keep buying DVDs rather than Blu-rays. Hence them spreading their FUD that upconverting is the way forward and there is no quality advantage for Blu-ray.

Personally I think the upconverting thing is hilarious. Nobody ever claims you don't need a 12MP camera because you can just upconvert a 2MP image in photoshop, but that is precisely what Toshiba are claiming they can do. If you can multiply the resolution by 6 and give the same result as a native image of the higher resolution, what is stopping you from doing it again, and again, and again? If it were possible to do such a thing, you would be able to create gigapixel images from a 2MP camera, but IT CAN'T BE DONE. That is why CSI is fiction not reality when you see them endlessly zooming in on images.

If Toshiba thought upconverted DVD was so good why the need to put out HD DVD's and HD DVD players then.

[Canada]

I have never understood the argument that Blu Ray players are too expensive. People who have HDTV's probably dropped a pretty pennie to get them. I would think most people who have an HDTV now are thinking about buying a Blu Ray player. Yeah the disks are expensive I agree, but they are way less expensive than buying a new DVD and then buying the same movie in Blu Ray two years down the road!

[elmo]

Originally Posted by Canada

I have never understood the argument that Blu Ray players are too expensive. People who have HDTV's probably dropped a pretty pennie to get them. I would think most people who have an HDTV now are thinking about buying a Blu Ray player. Yeah the disks are expensive I agree, but they are way less expensive than buying a new DVD and then buying the same movie in Blu Ray two years down the road!

i no i bought my hdtv and ps3 at t same time (i didnt c t point in havin a hdtv wi no hd source lol). yea t discs r expensive but theres a big diff in dvd and blu ray if uv a tv bigger than 37".

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Canada

I have never understood the argument that Blu Ray players are too expensive. People who have HDTV's probably dropped a pretty pennie to get them. I would think most people who have an HDTV now are thinking about buying a Blu Ray player. Yeah the disks are expensive I agree, but they are way less expensive than buying a new DVD and then buying the same movie in Blu Ray two years down the road!

Funny, I see NEITHER as being expensive.

I paid $700-$1000 for an LD player and $75-$100 for discs until the introduction of DVD. Blu-ray is an absolute bargain, TODAY.

The great restorations to come, where so many classic movies of the past have a chance to be brought back to life and presented as most of us have NEVER seen them needs to be paid for by those willing to pay the premium.

Now, a common blockbuster new release definitely should come down. It will sell so many discs and the economies of scale and ease of authoring should be passed on. But what about a work of art, lovingly restored?

Gary

[CassilineKnight]

Originally Posted by Blaumann

Thank you for this comparison.

There is still a lot of Anti-Blu-ray propaganda going on and at this point i don't know why. I can understand up to a certain point why someone would prefer HD DVD, if there is a choice between two formats. I was purple, even leaning to the red side because of the region coding, throughout the format war. But this new trend of dissing Blu-ray just for the sake of it is just really p!ssing me off.

Why is there still the need for those obviously not interested in Blu-ray to predict a certain doom of the format? Why don't they just lay back and watch, if it happens (which it will not)? What are the benefits from angst-spreading now?

You asked why?

Well personally I think it comes from the way SOME (please read NOT all) people in the Bluray camp have acted and how those actions are percieved by HD DVD owners and neutral HD enthusiasts...

Personally besides sony being involved in Bluray the only other thing that turned me off was the arrogance of some Bluray owners and the way they were so quick to attack HD DVD owners or even those who simply had the "audacity" to question any of Bluray qualities/features (or lack thereof) in the beginning.

When it comes down to it Bluray is overall a good format. However will it replace DVD? I certainly hope so now that I've invested in the format. However I won't dismiss the threat of downloads or something else...

In short if I think people who support Bluray need to start acting a lil bit more mature. Maybe its only the rabid sony/ps3 fanbase and maybe its as common as I think it is but in the end this war was VERY divisive and the wounds won't heal that quickly.

I've heard MANY HD DVD owners claim whole heartedly that they won't support Bluray no matter what despite the fact that they LOVE High Def movies.

Thats a serious problem. We NEED those people to jump on board. Its not going to happen if theres this constant bashing between the two groups...

Anyways thats my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Still waiting patiently for those Profile 2.0 Players to come out and dazzle me...

[HeavyHitter]

I've been saying for a long time (as a long time member) that HTF has other motives and has lost credibility since the format war began.

[Spankey]

Great post Grubert. The HTF piece is nothing but a wishlist for Blu-ray to fail. The only reason for that is they backed the wrong horse. I have been mentioning a lot of points in your post for some time. These "enthusiast" sites are no longer about achieving the best audio/video experience in the home. They are about the owners need to feel a part of an industry they are not part of.

Any wrong step could still see it consigned to the scrap heap of dead formats that have tried valiantly and failed. Any doubts? Just ask Toshiba.

This is the most ridiculous statement of the HTF article and clearly reveals their bias. To them, Toshiba did everything right. It was the "perfect" next gen format yet it still lost. So what did Toshiba do wrong? Was there one misstep? They just spent an entire article noting their "percieved" shortcomings of Blu-ray yet one "wrong step" could cause it to fail? What step would that be?

HD-DVD should never have been considered a next gen format for any HT "enthusiast" who has been involved in the hobby since the LD/DVD days. We have seen what happens to video quality on DVD when space is an issue. HD-DVD was already maxed out. HD Audio became a special feature instead of the norm. All due to storage and bandwidth limitations. The argument ends there. Special features, profiles, etc. don't amount to a hill of beans if you can't get the best audio/video presentation a format can offer.

If Blu-ray can offer creative features and a quality viewing experience at a reasonable price, it has a shot, but it must move fast since there is only a brief window to succeed thanks to the hovering threat of cheap high-definition Web downloads.

Ya know what I find so great about this line. They are essentially arguing FOR Divx!

[Blaumann]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

You asked why?

Well personally I think it comes from the way SOME (please read NOT all) people in the Bluray camp have acted and how those actions are percieved by HD DVD owners and neutral HD enthusiasts...

Personally besides sony being involved in Bluray the only other thing that turned me off was the arrogance of some Bluray owners and the way they were so quick to attack HD DVD owners or even those who simply had the "audacity" to question any of Bluray qualities/features (or lack thereof) in the beginning.

When it comes down to it Bluray is overall a good format. However will it replace DVD? I certainly hope so now that I've invested in the format. However I won't dismiss the threat of downloads or something else...

In short if I think people who support Bluray need to start acting a lil bit more mature. Maybe its only the rabid sony/ps3 fanbase and maybe its as common as I think it is but in the end this war was VERY divisive and the wounds won't heal that quickly.

I've heard MANY HD DVD owners claim whole heartedly that they won't support Bluray no matter what despite the fact that they LOVE High Def movies.

Thats a serious problem. We NEED those people to jump on board. Its not going to happen if theres this constant bashing between the two groups...

Anyways thats my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Still waiting patiently for those Profile 2.0 Players to come out and dazzle me...

Well, i have read and heard incredible b.s. coming from both sides. Thank god that is all behind us now, except for the few remaining anti-Sony/ anti-BD/ anti-whatever guys. They look very weird now, because last year they could hide behind "we are supporting HD DVD" and "this is war". But since HD DVD folded, there is no way to conceal their negative, destructive agenda any more.

[Jordahn]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

You asked why?

Well personally I think it comes from the way SOME (please read NOT all) people in the Bluray camp have acted and how those actions are percieved by HD DVD owners and neutral HD enthusiasts...

Stop right there. Level headed high deifinition enthusiasts whether they favored Blu-ray or HD DVD should be reasonable to think that all camps have their share of rabid fanboys. With this being said, any reasonable high definition enthusiast who favored HD DVD should have already made or willing will eventually make the switch to Blu-ray since they truely see the benefits of high definition because it's not about the format. Why would anyone reasonable not act on this? It's the rabid HD DVD fanboy that are pushing anything besides Blu-ray. Blu-ray is high definition, and it is also the high definition standard. So why wouldn't high definition enthusiasts at the very least acknowledge this? Sadly, some are willing to put their twisted personal agandas over what's beneficial to others, and those are your rabid HD DVD fanboys.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

You asked why?

Well personally I think it comes from the way SOME (please read NOT all) people in the Bluray camp have acted and how those actions are percieved by HD DVD owners and neutral HD enthusiasts...

Personally besides sony being involved in Bluray the only other thing that turned me off was the arrogance of some Bluray owners and the way they were so quick to attack HD DVD owners or even those who simply had the "audacity" to question any of Bluray qualities/features (or lack thereof) in the beginning.

When it comes down to it Bluray is overall a good format. However will it replace DVD? I certainly hope so now that I've invested in the format. However I won't dismiss the threat of downloads or something else...

In short if I think people who support Bluray need to start acting a lil bit more mature. Maybe its only the rabid sony/ps3 fanbase and maybe its as common as I think it is but in the end this war was VERY divisive and the wounds won't heal that quickly.

I've heard MANY HD DVD owners claim whole heartedly that they won't support Bluray no matter what despite the fact that they LOVE High Def movies.

Thats a serious problem. We NEED those people to jump on board. Its not going to happen if theres this constant bashing between the two groups...

Anyways thats my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Still waiting patiently for those Profile 2.0 Players to come out and dazzle me...

The HD DVD owners as a whole have acted far worse that Blu-ray folks (regarding the type of people you mentioned). I guess you haven't been reading AVS, HDD, or HTF the last two years.

The fact you still have people clinging to HD DVD and now thinking "super upscaling" is the new answer just goes to show the mentality of these people.