And the weirdness of Region coding/Free keeps going now with LOST

[mredman]

http://bluray.liesinc.net/

season 1 Free
season 2 Free
season 3 Locked
season 4 Locked

And season 1 and 2 is the 2 latest releases. This keeps getting weirder and weirder. But then again it fits with this show
But not other shows and movies.

[steve_dave]

Season 1 & 2 have already aired in most of the world so no fear of lost advertising revenue to cross imports.

Season 3 was more than likely released at the same time as 3 was airing internationally just like Season 4 is right now. So to protect licensing deals, they region lock titles.

[mredman]

Well that is poor excuse because Supernatural and Smallville and other shows aswell i think is not locked. So i do not buy that excuse

Maybe it is because its warner (best movie company for their customers arround the world) because they don't pity themself with region coding

[John_Edwards]

Originally Posted by steve_dave

Season 3 was more than likely released at the same time as 3 was airing internationally just like Season 4 is right now. So to protect licensing deals, they region lock titles.

There are a few problems with this line of reasoning.

The most important one is that Lost season 3 is still locked, even though by now it definitely has aired in all or at least most countries in region B. So, I could understand a little that the initial batch is indeed region locked, but why keep locking a title indefinitely? That makes no sense at all.

Secondly, a large part of region B is Europe. Europe has a single internal market and there are no internal borders between European states, so you can't really speak of importing a title from one state to the other. Yet, broadcast schedules vary wildly between states. A show like Cashmere Mafia aired in Belgium very soon after the original broadcast in the US but has yet to be aired in most other states. So, by your definition there are no licensing deals to protect anymore for Belgium and a DVD or Blu-ray of Cashmere Mafia could be released in Belgium.

However, if you release something in Belgium, you practically release it for the whole of Europe.

Turning this the other way around, you could argue that one most wait "to protect licensing deals" until each and every state of Europe has had some show aired before it may be released on DVD or Blu-ray in any state. This would be totally unworkable too, since a couple of the smaller obscure states may not even have enough hours on the few TV channels they have to air every possible US show, don't even mention the fact that the local public may simply not be interested.

Of course there's also the question of how many people actually go through the trouble to import some Blu-ray and spent quite a sum of money for some show that they haven't yet seen on the 'regular TV'. My guess is that the majority would just like to see it for free on their telly.

My other guess is that people who are not allowed to see some show because of region locking will simply download it off the Internet. I personally prefer not to do that, but I see it happening all around me. Family, friends, co-workers, their motto seems to be: Region lock? So you don't want my money? Well, then I guess bittorrent will sure love my clicks.

Finally, there are a couple of studios who never region lock anything. Are they making less money?

[steve_dave]

Originally Posted by mredman

Well that is poor excuse because Supernatural and Smallville and other shows aswell i think is not locked. So i do not buy that excuse

Maybe it is because its warner (best movie company for their customers arround the world) because they don't pity themself with region coding

The long answer...WARNING HD DVD BEING MENTIONED...

Warner Home Video does not region code titles. They feel that the region code system achieves nothing in terms of preventing cross imports nor do they believe that cross imports affect revenue streams.

When the HD DVD specification was being formed, the HD DVD forum voted by majority to not include region coding on titles and players. If need be, region coding could be added later but the majority ruled against region codes.

Blu-ray Disc had region coding from the start because two companies wanted it: 20th Century Fox & Buena Vista/Walt Disney (who by the way, distribute Lost). In fact, region coding and BD+ are the reasons why these two went Blu-ray only. HD DVD was "less secure" in their eyes as a high-definition format. Sure, both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc were "cracked" and rips appeared online but Serenity was the first high-definition release to be "broken" and posted. Not surprisingly, this was an HD DVD but Blu-ray was eventually cracked a year after its introduction.

New Line Home Entertainment (before it was folded into Warner Home Entertainment) supported both formats. However, due to the licensing agreements, movies like Rush Hour 3 & Shoot 'Em Up never came to HD DVD as promised. Mainly it had to do with Warner becoming Blu only but New Line released the older catalog title Pan's Labyrinth on HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc since the film has been released to the international market already. The plan was to wait for international distributors to announce the home video versions of Rush Hour 3, Shoot 'Em Up, etc then release them on HD DVD. The Blu-ray Discs were day & date since they could use the region code to protect their international partners.

Many countries are also debating the legality of region coding since it does hinder free trade among countries. Granted the region codes for Blu-ray are far less restrictive than DVD but many smaller local distributers do not region code releases since for them, cross importing can actually help them earn more revenue.

[steve_dave]

Originally Posted by John_Edwards

There are a few problems with this line of reasoning.

The most important one is that Lost season 3 is still locked, even though by now it definitely has aired in all or at least most countries in region B. So, I could understand a little that the initial batch is indeed region locked, but why keep locking a title indefinitely? That makes no sense at all.

Why keep region locking older movies and TV shows on DVD & BD? That also makes no sense but it still happens.

Secondly, a large part of region B is Europe. Europe has a single internal market and there are no internal borders between European states, so you can't really speak of importing a title from one state to the other. Yet, broadcast schedules vary wildly between states. A show like Cashmere Mafia aired in Belgium very soon after the original broadcast in the US but has yet to be aired in most other states. So, by your definition there are no licensing deals to protect anymore for Belgium and a DVD or Blu-ray of Cashmere Mafia could be released in Belgium.

However, if you release something in Belgium, you practically release it for the whole of Europe.

Its released in Belgium but not widely available in every store in Europe. You have to import it from Belgium to your country.

For example: North America is made up of Canada, US, and Mexico. With your argument when Alliance Canada releases a movie like say Fanboys or Blade then its available for all of North America. That is true in a sense but its not avaialble in stores or through many Us websites. You have to import it from Canada.

Turning this the other way around, you could argue that one most wait "to protect licensing deals" until each and every state of Europe has had some show aired before it may be released on DVD or Blu-ray in any state. This would be totally unworkable too, since a couple of the smaller obscure states may not even have enough hours on the few TV channels they have to air every possible US show, don't even mention the fact that the local public may simply not be interested.

Some titles are held until after every country gets it. In fact, some distributors have found ways to protect their licensing deals without region coding. There could be PAL format extras that only work with PAL compatible players. Fortune Star was not allowed to include the original English language track for Enter The Dragon and many Thai releases only have Thai subtitles to prevent consumers in other Southeast Asian countries from importing them.

[mredman]

Originally Posted by John_Edwards

Finally, there are a couple of studios who never region lock anything. Are they making less money?

I actually think the studios that release region free titles is making more money because people all over the world buy their titles and we all know some titles does not get released all places in the world

So i really don't see the reasoning behind Region coding and i think it is a selfish act by those studios that does it. I am glad the majority of the studios is releasing Region free titles

[atomik kinder]

Originally Posted by John_Edwards

There are a few problems with this line of reasoning.

The most important one is that Lost season 3 is still locked, even though by now it definitely has aired in all or at least most countries in region B. So, I could understand a little that the initial batch is indeed region locked, but why keep locking a title indefinitely? That makes no sense at all.

Still locked? It is always going to be locked unless they re-release the title. There is no magic unlock button. It is encoded on the disc, therefore a disc that is locked is always going to be locked. Only if and when they re-release it can they decided to not region lock it.

[John_Edwards]

Originally Posted by atomik kinder

Still locked? It is always going to be locked unless they re-release the title. There is no magic unlock button. It is encoded on the disc, therefore a disc that is locked is always going to be locked.

Well, I don't really agree with that. First of all I was talking about batches. When a title is first released, how many discs are pressed? 100.000? 1000.000? Eventually they run out of copies and have to order some factory somewhere to make them more discs. When that happens, can't they simply include the order to omit the lock? A lock is nothing more than a flag you set via the blu-ray authoring system. I probably boils down to a single bit being flipped somewhere on the disc.

Maybe more importantly, yes, the magic unlock button DOES EXIST. The blu-ray specification includes the ability to download updates for titles and such an update can in fact influence the DRM rules and that includes the region lock. Unfortunately, vendors can also use this mechanism to add region locking to a title that was initially unlocked, but that's another thing.

[John_Edwards]

Originally Posted by steve_dave

Its released in Belgium but not widely available in every store in Europe. You have to import it from Belgium to your country.

For example: North America is made up of Canada, US, and Mexico. With your argument when Alliance Canada releases a movie like say Fanboys or Blade then its available for all of North America. That is true in a sense but its not avaialble in stores or through many Us websites. You have to import it from Canada.

I hear you, but it's still a little different actually. Between say Germany and Belgium, there is no difference is currency being used (most of Europe uses the Euro) and thus no exchange rate to take into consideration. There is also no border patrol and there are no customs, so there is no duty to collect. That's what I meant by saying you are not really 'importing' in the traditional sense of the word.

The concept of member states in Europe is something that's a little between the concept of states in the USA and the concept of separate but befriended countries like the USA and Canada.

[atomik kinder]

Originally Posted by John_Edwards

Well, I don't really agree with that. First of all I was talking about batches. When a title is first released, how many discs are pressed? 100.000? 1000.000? Eventually they run out of copies and have to order some factory somewhere to make them more discs. When that happens, can't they simply include the order to omit the lock? A lock is nothing more than a flag you set via the blu-ray authoring system. I probably boils down to a single bit being flipped somewhere on the disc.

Maybe more importantly, yes, the magic unlock button DOES EXIST. The blu-ray specification includes the ability to download updates for titles and such an update can in fact influence the DRM rules and that includes the region lock. Unfortunately, vendors can also use this mechanism to add region locking to a title that was initially unlocked, but that's another thing.

I doubt they could do either of those. The disc would have to be re-authored, if you knew anything about production. And as for the unlock download update, that would be for the actual Blu-ray player production company to do and not a studio. That is not something a manufacturer is going to do. In fact all of the manufacturers would have to have an update for each individual brand. It isn't going to happen.

[koontz1973]

In today's world of pirate movies, region locking any film is pointless. Why region lock a US title when the RB version is region free / ABC. Shows like Dexter which are locked, have not been released within the UK yet, and may not be for some time, lose the studio money. I would import this show in a heartbeat. I think region locking films they intend to release around the world within a couple of months of each other is fine, but not the ones they may not for a couple of years or more.

[GGX]

Originally Posted by mredman

Maybe it is because its warner (best movie company for their customers arround the world) because they don't pity themself with region coding

Yet they suck at everything else...

[John_Edwards]

Originally Posted by atomik kinder

I doubt they could do either of those. The disc would have to be re-authored, if you knew anything about production.

In fact I do. The region lock is a single flag in the header of the file image from which a blu-ray is pressed. Changing this is trivial. Technically such a change is indeed re-authoring the master image, but the thing is that this happens all the time. It's mostly done for small bug fixes, like glitches in menus or spelling errors in sub titles.

And as for the unlock download update, that would be for the actual Blu-ray player production company to do and not a studio. That is not something a manufacturer is going to do. In fact all of the manufacturers would have to have an update for each individual brand. It isn't going to happen.

You're completely wrong here. A production company can release an update for an individual Blu-ray title. This update will be executed by the Java virtual machine that is independent of any brand. Code in this update can either lock or unlock a title. If I'm not mistaken, this has indeed happened in the past. Some titles were originally unlocked, but when the customer downloaded a supposedly necessary update they became locked. Once again, this update solely consists out of blu-ray product code and -does not- touch the firmware of any blu-ray player in any way.

[mredman]

Originally Posted by GGX

Yet they suck at everything else...

TDK is one of the finest releases last year so yiu are GREATLY excageraiting(don't know if i spelled that correct)

[atomik kinder]

Originally Posted by John_Edwards

In fact I do. The region lock is a single flag in the header of the file image from which a blu-ray is pressed. Changing this is trivial. Technically such a change is indeed re-authoring the master image, but the thing is that this happens all the time. It's mostly done for small bug fixes, like glitches in menus or spelling errors in sub titles.



You're completely wrong here. A production company can release an update for an individual Blu-ray title. This update will be executed by the Java virtual machine that is independent of any brand. Code in this update can either lock or unlock a title. If I'm not mistaken, this has indeed happened in the past. Some titles were originally unlocked, but when the customer downloaded a supposedly necessary update they became locked. Once again, this update solely consists out of blu-ray product code and -does not- touch the firmware of any blu-ray player in any way.

Really? Then if this infact is the case then why is it that some players still cannot play certain titles and other players that initially could not play them can? It seems to me that it is up to the manufacturer of the player and not the BD that issues these updates. If this was the case, then all players would be able to play the titles in question and be updated at the same time. I am not talking about region locking either. And I have never heard of any titles that were initially not locked but now are.

[John_Edwards]

Originally Posted by atomik kinder

Really? Then if this infact is the case then why is it that some players still cannot play certain titles and other players that initially could not play them can?

It seems to me you are confusing two completely separate issues. The first issue is that a BD title may require a certain level of functionality from the player. This kind of functionality originates from the player's firmware, its hardware capabilities, or a combination thereof. The so-called profiles standardize this. At first this was a rather messy affair, but ever since the spec of profile 2.0 was released and players actually comply to that, things have gotten much better.

Obviously an update for a player to comply with a certain blu-ray profile can only come from the vendor of such player. I don't think the software on a blu-ray disk can even initiate a firmware update, but even if it could it would be pointless since there are simply too much models to support.

Now the second, completely unrelated issue, is that the software on an individual blu-ray disk may contain bugs or otherwise shortcomings. Or maybe the producer of that disk simply wants to add features after it has already been released. This is a very common model in software development; providing patches/updates after a product has been released. You probably already about know about this kind of functionality from the operating system on your computer. The blu-ray specification thus has foreseen in the need for titles to update themselves. This is not about the player or its firmware, but only about the title. Since a region lock is a flag set by the title in question itself, this can be changed by a software update of said title. Once again, this absolutely has nothing, and I clearly repeat, NOTHING to do with your player's firmware.

For a 'proof' of the latter phenomenon, see this:

http://movietyme.blogspot.com/2009/0...-our-blog.html

To quote from that link:

Hi, I recently purchased 'My Bloody Valentine' from you on Blu-Ray.
The disc comes region free as advertised but becomes region encoded
after a recommended update is downloaded. This makes the disc
unplayable for subsequent viewings on non-Region A machines. The
update also appears to do little else than region lock the disc. To
play the disc again I needed to to go into my BD data directory and
delete the update.

Furthermore be sure to check this link too:

http://www.blurayregioncodes.com/index.php?region=a

This among others makes it clear that newer pressings of some blu-ray can in fact have a change in region locking. E.g. look up the tip for Apocalypto:

It would seem that newer pressing of the disc is for some weird reason region locked

The more logical thing however would be that newer pressings of discs would not be region locked anymore, to comply with the 'explanation' that region locking is only needed to ensure licensing rights are protected for countries where some show hasn't aired yet. Yet we see the opposite thing happening. It's also interesting to see that for some titles the first disc of a set is locked and the others not, or the other way around. Maddening!

[GGX]

Originally Posted by mredman

TDK is one of the finest releases last year so yiu are GREATLY excageraiting(don't know if i spelled that correct)

Far to much EE in the non-IMAX scenes for my taste. Could of looked MUCH better.

[Blu-Boy in BKK]

Originally Posted by mredman

TDK is one of the finest releases last year so yiu are GREATLY excageraiting(don't know if i spelled that correct)

Exaggerating

[Mire]

So movietyme and the other site says it's regionfree. But today's bluray(dot)com review says it's region A. which one is correct?