To All Realistic Question

[zodiak]

Thanks as always for the replys and info,

I came to this forum because I wanted to build a HT and wanted to make a simi intelligent purchasing decesion.

What I thought I wanted in the beginning has changed but what direction to go has not become any clearer, so I would like to ask a direct "realistic" question I am counting on the wealth of knowledge that exisits here for some direction.

With all the many setup's, different receivers,speakers, pre-outs,no pre-outs, external amps, no external amps.....and so on, my question is I dont really ever see someone saying jeez my set up stinks stay away from this equipment.

For a person such as myself getting into this from sub zero---no knowledge at all or maybe more importantly no real experience with the different speakers and avr's and such, a question is how much does the price of a product make performance wise?, I understand a $1000 speaker is going to sound better than a $99 speaker, but how much difference?

For someone who is getting into this stuff I understand the advice to purchase a rec. with preouts so you can up grade, but how important is that really, most of you I have read have "upgrade Itis" so you seem to be in constant search of perfection so am I to believe that your unhappy with your equipment? or just longing for the next best thing(with no disrespect intended) from a beginner all Im in search of is the HT experience.

What gives that experience is what I dont know, will a $300 receiver & $100 speakers give someone that experience(again understanding that $1000 equipment is going to enhance that experience) one thought that creates uncertainty in my mind is the actual difference, to some degree we can become sales people for our favorite product/brand, so where is the difference?

I understand alot of this is personal likes/dislikes, but in terms of performance giving someone a quality HT experience how far does one need to go to get that.

I respect everyone here please for give the long post.

[DonRSD]

receiver = get something that ACCEPTS HDMI....NO 'HDMI PASSTHRU'
hdmi pass thru = you will need a seperate audio connection & you will never get lossless audio.

as far as speakers.....to ME....get a set of polks from www.newegg.com
unless you spend 3k+ for a set of speakers, you wont notice too much of a difference.

lossless audio = the key to everything!

plus get a decent sub.
i went from an onkyo htib sub, to a klipsch 100 watt MAX sub, to now an acoustic audio 12" 800 watt sub.
i doubt ill ever need 800 watts, but my current klipsch 'farts' in movies

[callas01]

Originally Posted by zodiak

Thanks as always for the replys and info,

I came to this forum because I wanted to build a HT and wanted to make a simi intelligent purchasing decesion.

What I thought I wanted in the beginning has changed but what direction to go has not become any clearer, so I would like to ask a direct "realistic" question I am counting on the wealth of knowledge that exisits here for some direction.

With all the many setup's, different receivers,speakers, pre-outs,no pre-outs, external amps, no external amps.....and so on, my question is I dont really ever see someone saying jeez my set up stinks stay away from this equipment.

For a person such as myself getting into this from sub zero---no knowledge at all or maybe more importantly no real experience with the different speakers and avr's and such, a question is how much does the price of a product make performance wise?, I understand a $1000 speaker is going to sound better than a $99 speaker, but how much difference?

For someone who is getting into this stuff I understand the advice to purchase a rec. with preouts so you can up grade, but how important is that really, most of you I have read have "upgrade Itis" so you seem to be in constant search of perfection so am I to believe that your unhappy with your equipment? or just longing for the next best thing(with no disrespect intended) from a beginner all Im in search of is the HT experience.

What gives that experience is what I dont know, will a $300 receiver & $100 speakers give someone that experience(again understanding that $1000 equipment is going to enhance that experience) one thought that creates uncertainty in my mind is the actual difference, to some degree we can become sales people for our favorite product/brand, so where is the difference?

I understand alot of this is personal likes/dislikes, but in terms of performance giving someone a quality HT experience how far does one need to go to get that.
I respect everyone here please for give the long post.

Very good post.

I don't think you will ever see anyone say their system stinks, unless they are coming from a Home Theatre in a Box, people want to like (love) their stuff, so no I don't think you will see that too often.

there does become a point of diminishing returns, yes a PSB Imagine sounds 10 times better (subjective) then a Polk Monitor 50, but how much better or worse then B&W 800s? At some point going from a $1500 speaker to a $2500 speaker or a $5000 there isn't a huge change, obviously or critics wouldn't say "this speakers sounds as good as some I have heard costing 2 times this one." IMO, going from Entry to Mid, there is a good difference, from entry to High end, a major difference, and from Mid to High end, not as big of a jump, Of course, I have never heard super high end speakers other then B&W800s, which I didn't even know what quality sound they had, I just knew they were $7000 each. this was before I was into this crazy hobby.

I think most are just looking for the ultimate sound, I think others just have a buying and spending habit, or a need for attention on this website........ who knows. But I think everyone is generally happy, they just want the ultimate experience. but yes some may be here to be seen as pompus and superficial. I can't tell you who, but I am sure there are some.

a $100 receiver and $300 speakers can give you a good experience, and if you are happy then be happy, but yes, a $400 reciever and $600 speakers would be significantly better, at least it was in my case. For me the difference was HUGE

I whole heartily agree, we do become sales people for our own stuff, I hope so at least, many of us love our equipment and want to share that experience with others. of course what sounds great to me in my house may not work as well for you and in your environment, that is why this is subjective and it is always best to do what makes you happiest and you feel will be the best for your situation.

Also why we try to tell everyone to audition speakers and recievers to make sure you will be happy when you get them home.

How far you need to go to get that, well only you can decide, look at how many people have upgraditis.....

[Rob J in WNY]

Kodiak,

This is a really good thread, seriously!

Like with any hobby, there's a natural inclination to look at what's better out there. Some people reach a certain satisfaction, while others have an insatiable desire to keep moving up, leading to some of the most complex and beautiful home theater systems. You don't have to peruse the galleries on this site long to see some really great examples of this. Obviously, having the money to keep on moving up is going to be the greatest limitation for most people, but there is no reason why a person cannot find a happy-medium within their budget, either. In fact, a lot of people eventually do.

As you are aware, spending more money usually pays dividends, but on the whole, this is NOT a linear thing. In other words, a $600 pair of speakers will likely produce a marked sonic improvement over a $200 pair of speakers, but to get the same "amount" of "improvement" again, a person may need to spend $1,500 for a pair of speakers, and up it goes from there. So, for most of us, we find that happy-medium, upgrading to a certain point, and again only when an opportunity arises (usually a great price deal).

At this point in the technology, competing brands of AV receivers are fairly a close match in performance vs. dollars. It's relatively easy to get 7.1 channel sound, lossless audio decoding, 1080 video upconversion and even some room correction algorithms for less than $500. Up from there, you get into receivers with better internal amplifier quality and circuitry, perhaps improved digital-to-analog processing, more component connection options, pre-outs - allowing for the use of an external amplifier, much more versatile remote controls, and other improvements. Most newcomer enthusiasts will be happy with an upgrade to this level. Up from that point, receivers begin to get very esoteric in nature, catering to the most ardent audiophiles, and cost thousands of dollars.

Receiver-wise, in my case, I upgraded to a Pioneer Elite SC-05 receiver. Of course, I was in the market to upgrade at the time, and, not unusually for most people, I jumped a great deal when it arose out of the blue! I moved up to 7.1 channels (from 5.1), HDMI switching, lossless audio processing, advanced room correction, and a serious improvement on the amplifier end, among other great things. It also has pre-outs, but I don't think I'll be moving up to a separate amplifier soon because the high-quality amplifier in the receiver (Class D switching, "ICEpower" amplifiers) provide superior "real-world" output and plenty of dynamic headroom. My living room is serviced nicely by it without a need for a dedicated amplifier. When I move up to a home where I can create a dedicated theater room, I will then consider moving up to separates. However, come that time, I have a receiver which has that base covered.

I might be playing the devil's advocate here, but getting to know equipment in a deeper way can pay the highest dividends, no matter what a person spent on it. For instance, we can "set it and forget it" with auto room correction algorithms, but learning to control the audio manually can bring drastic improvements. I've heard sub-$1,000 complete systems produce better sound quality than $5,000+ systems. Poor or lackadaisical system settings bring comparable results. Learning to manually adjust various speaker settings, EQ, output levels and other parameters in the receiver makes for a distinct advantage. Look up "SPL meters" on this site and you'll find so much advice from people who spent $30 to $50 on a simple SPL meter which could fill volumes! Also look up "Dynamic Range Compression" (DRC) and you'll find a whole lot of information - and misunderstanding - on the subject!

You had mentioned about people not saying anything about not liking their own equipment. Rest assured, you'll also find plenty of people on this site offering up their woes with certain brands and models of anything, from receivers to speakers to TVs and other equipment they have now or owned in the past. There's plenty of unhappy people!

Moving up is not entirely about spending money. There are a few things people can do to maximize what they have for little or no investment. Proper speaker location and angling may not cost a thing, but make a stark improvement in the soundstage and imaging. Some speakers' and subwoofers' sonic output can be improved by carefully adding a few pennies worth of polyfill. Raising or better "decoupling" speakers and subs from the floor and walls can improve their output quality. Keeping up with equipment firmware updates is also free, making for improved and trouble-free use. Tucking away and hiding ugly wiring and cables, and keeping the components dusted off and clean keeps your system looking at its finest and is good for the equipment. It all comes together to bring a heightened sense of personal satisfaction.

I think that the market for upgrading tends to hype up the "here and now." When you do decide to move up, it's a good idea to see if you can audition the components you are interested in. Once you've made the choice and can make the purchase, do it and be happy, because "tomorrow," something better will come. Few components are ever made "instantly obsolete" by "the next model." I guess what I'm trying to say is that a person doesn't have to worry about "when" they will upgrade. It's a manufacturer's "job" to keep putting out "the next model." When they do that, it doesn't necessarily make a new purchase obsolete. In the case of my Pioneer SC-05, I may stick with it for years - or maybe not - but I'm not worried about the time. Of course, I'm not saying that this is how you might feel, but it can't be overstated how we are impressed to upgrade as much by the manufacturers and showroom floors as we are influenced by the great home theaters produced by people who love this hobby.

Meh......sorry for this long post! Hope you enjoyed reading it!

[aramis109]

If you're going to go with a receiver vs. separates, you want to get something that's as flexible as possible. You want it to allow for upgrades (HDMI, pre-outs), want it to have plenty of true power for your devices, and want it to be able to handle all the latest codecs. I think I may be the first person to tell you to avoid what I purchased- the Onkyo 805. I seriously love mine, but I'd hate to tell a new person to grab it and then have the same problem I did with the display. The newer Onkyos, Pioneer Elites, or Denons are all good choices there.

Speakers are so subjective, there is no "one true answer" at almost any given pricepoint. Those who don't love their speakers are either working on upgrades or busy convincing themselves that they do. I love my speakers, but there are also tons of tohers I'd love to own. I think the biggest piece of advice I can give you is to make sure to spend enough that in 6 months you're not looking to replace them with something else. The Polk RM6750 set is an excellent example- I purchased it and 6 months later was looking for something bigger. Nearly everyone who purchased that set has upgraded from it.

Oh, and enjoy the ride- it's fun shopping for speakers and HT equipment.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Hi zodiak,

Like callas01 and Rob J in WNY have said, this is a very good thread and a most interesting read. There isn't a lot I can add to their replies, so I won't even try. I will comment on something that Rob mentioned about "getting to know equipment in a deeper way " and "Moving up is not entirely about spending money". If you follow this thought process, you can be assured that whatever piece(s) of equipment you own, it will satisfy you for much longer.

One example for instance. I see many systems here whereby the speakers (especially the fronts) are positioned in such a way that it hinders their potential. They are either (or both) too close to a wall or equipment rack, angled-in towards the sweet spot much too severely and connected with the thinnest gauge of wire you could ever imagine. After a few years (sometimes only a few months) they get tired of them and want something better, because it just doesn't sound right. Well duh!!! Of course it doesn't. The speaker placement is all wrong and they could do with a small upgrade on some better cabling. Playing around with your componants and getting to know your equipment is maybe one of the best pieces of advice given. Thank Rob for bringing attention to that.

John

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by zodiak

For a person such as myself getting into this from sub zero---no knowledge at all or maybe more importantly no real experience with the different speakers and avr's and such, a question is how much does the price of a product make performance wise?, I understand a $1000 speaker is going to sound better than a $99 speaker, but how much difference?

There are three measures of performance in speakers:

Clarity
Volume
Esthetics

You usually get none of them under $100 per speaker. Over that amount, you'll get two out of three; starting at about $400, you'll start seeing all three.

For clarity, look at the drivers - high quality tweeters are important. For volume, quality tweeters and mid-range drivers. For esthetics, piano black finishes, or real wood or wood veneer, is important.

Mass market stores generally charge more for loud volume, and esthetics are non-existent. For some, this doesn't matter, and good value can be found in the Polk and Klipsch lines on the lower end. Remember: not all room sizes are the same - what may sound fine in a small room will have to be pushed too hard to sound good in a large room. That's why people upgrade.

For receivers, feature sets are less important that low harmonic distortion at high volume. So, the more output power, the better the sound. It's like horsepower in a car. If you're buying a system that is "of a piece" - when you're done buying it, it fits your environment - you don't need additional upgrade points like pre-outs for amplifiers and such. But beefier receivers often include such features by default.

I've found the best value and features in Pioneer receivers, so they're my preference. Earlier in the Blu cycle, decoders within amplifiers for DTS and Dolby codecs were rudimentary, and Onkyo was the value-price leader at that time - but they really didn't have the power, or clarity, of Pioneer, until you got very expensive units. It's still true.

First thing, decide on your budget. Next, decide on the room it's going into. Now, you can decide on what the components will be.

LISTEN TO THEM! Use music material you're familiar with (films are too hard to compare) and listen for dynamic range, clarity, and the ability to sound clear at both low and high volume. Don't listen to salespeople; listen to the speakers.

If you're not finding what you want locally, come back to the forum and ask the folks here about unfamiliar brands you might be interested in.

If you're looking at 4 ohm speakers, you will absolutely need an amplifier. I'd even avoid 6 ohm speakers without an amp - you can run them, but not at volume. Never overtax your receiver, it's not worth it.

Last thing: Get a decent subwoofer. Every dollar spent on the sub is a dollar saved on the speakers, because you're not looking for low-end clarity in the speakers; that jacks the price up to crazy levels.

Think about budget, and location for the system, and come back with more questions. Folks around here are very knowledgeable.