Any electricians in the house?

[silversnake]

I didn't know where to post this but I figured this was the best place. Mods feel free to move it.

I figured I would ask here before anywhere else as I usually get my answers here. I live in an apartment that's fairly old and my electronics are dying on me left / right which has never happened before. All my electronics are on a surge protector (not cheap ones). In the last 6 months I've had both my computers die , 1 screen dead, ps3 dead, and my TV is acting weird like it's getting bad frequency or interference from something.

Now, it's not uncommon for my breaker to skip and everything turns off and I have to put the switch back on. If I have my washer/ dryer going, sometimes when it starts a new cycle my lights will start flickering or it will turn off/on real fast. If I have a hair dryer going on in the bathroom and I watch tv, the breaker will skip. I called my landlord and he told me that before moving in he had an electrician come in and look at everything. He says that I have too much stuff on one circuit and it's the reason why it's happening. I find it hard to believe that I can't have a hair dryer and watch TV at the same time without having problem, but I don't know since i'm not an electrician. I believe he said I can have up to 1800 watts on one circuit? If that makes any sense.

Was I just spoiled in the past when I lived in a house and could have a bunch of things running? Do I just have an incredible amount of bad luck and all my electronics where on the way out anyways?

I'm asking here because if I bring an electrician at my house and nothing is wrong, I have to foot the bill and that's not something I can really afford. But I also can't afford all the new electronics I'm going to have to purchase.

Thanks for any info or help guys.

[Slec]

Hair dryers actually sap up a TON of power. It's happened to me a few times where I've got the tv on downstairs, my wife has it on upstairs. When she plugs her hair dryer into the same circuit it trips.

For some odd reasons, the ceiling lights in my house are on the same circuit. Tells me the previous owners grabbed power from there because it was easy.

You should ask how many dedicated breakers you apartment has. Then see if he'll provide you with a map of the circuit. Maybe you can shuffle some things around to help out...

Hair Dryers, microwaves and large appliances are hogs for power. don't underestimate it.

[silversnake]

Thanks for the info Slec.

Moving things isn't really an option. I pretty much know what each plug goes on what breaker and it's not possible to distribute it better than I have now. My landlord isn't the greatest person in the world so i'll see if I can get more info out of him. I don't know if this is what you were asking but I have about 8 switches that I can turn off/on on my breaker.

Have any idea how much an electrician would cost by the hour? Granted I live in Canada so it's probably different but just to get a ballpark. My landlord is cheap and I know he wont' fix it if we have to change the whole system or whatever but I don't know if he is cheap and it's actually affecting me negatively.

[Marquoz]

Originally Posted by silversnake

Thanks for the info Slec.

Moving things isn't really an option. I pretty much know what each plug goes on what breaker and it's not possible to distribute it better than I have now. My landlord isn't the greatest person in the world so i'll see if I can get more info out of him. I don't know if this is what you were asking but I have about 8 switches that I can turn off/on on my breaker.

Possibly a stupid question, but what are all the breakers rated at? There should be a number on the "top" of the switch, like 5, 10, 20, 40.

[silversnake]

Originally Posted by Marquoz

Possibly a stupid question, but what are all the breakers rated at? There should be a number on the "top" of the switch, like 5, 10, 20, 40.

Most of them are 20 and 15. My kitchen has 40.

[Belloche]

If you live in an apartment (especially and older one)there's a good enough chance that your living room (TV) and your bathroom (hair dryer) are on the same cicuit . Having both on at the same time would be enough to trip it. If you're willing to pay an electrician can add a circuit easy enough (check with the landlord first). A free but less convienient solution would be to dry your hair in the kitchen if your TV is on. Those plugs should be on a seperate circuit. If there is an outlet on your stove, that's a seperate circuit too that has nothing else on it. Drying your hair in the kitchen may suck, but I wouldn't want to invest my money in upgading somebody else's property.

[Belloche]

Originally Posted by silversnake

Thanks for the info Slec.

Moving things isn't really an option. I pretty much know what each plug goes on what breaker and it's not possible to distribute it better than I have now. My landlord isn't the greatest person in the world so i'll see if I can get more info out of him. I don't know if this is what you were asking but I have about 8 switches that I can turn off/on on my breaker.

Have any idea how much an electrician would cost by the hour? Granted I live in Canada so it's probably different but just to get a ballpark. My landlord is cheap and I know he wont' fix it if we have to change the whole system or whatever but I don't know if he is cheap and it's actually affecting me negatively.

You won't get a circuit added for less than $100. Any more depends on how much work it is.

[Deadset]

Originally Posted by silversnake

Now, it's not uncommon for my breaker to skip and everything turns off and I have to put the switch back on. If I have my washer/ dryer going, sometimes when it starts a new cycle my lights will start flickering or it will turn off/on real fast. If I have a hair dryer going on in the bathroom and I watch tv, the breaker will skip. I called my landlord and he told me that before moving in he had an electrician come in and look at everything. He says that I have too much stuff on one circuit and it's the reason why it's happening. I find it hard to believe that I can't have a hair dryer and watch TV at the same time without having problem, but I don't know since i'm not an electrician. I believe he said I can have up to 1800 watts on one circuit? If that makes any sense.

Well, P=VI, so if your hair dryer is on HIGH, it could be pulling 1400 - 1800 watts depending on the model. That means it's around 11.5 to 15 amps. The ratings on the breaker is how many amps it can take (plus you do have some inrush on certain loads). Typically bathrooms are on a 20 (as I've seen them). Depends on how old the place is too. So if you're running home theater + bathroom stuff on the same circuit ! That just makes me cringe thinking about it.

What you also need to do is determine if you are getting 120v (+/- 5%), so it shouldn't be lower than 114v. Remember if your voltage is low, ie 114v, and you are pulling 1400 watts from the hair dryer, your current goes up to 12.3 A. So it's good to know what voltage you are getting. You can use a cheapy voltmeter from radio shack to check. Plus they are handy to have around to check for voltage before you tear into something.

I'd also like to hook up an O-scope to check how fuzzy the sine waves are. If it were me, I'd check power rating/quality first. You can have your utility check (in the states) for free.

But yeah, I agree with others, you really don't want to invest cash into an apt. What I would do is go to your panel and see what each breaker has on it, account for every outlet and light - yes it will take some time, but then you can break down which ones you use and separate them. Try to find an outlet that isn't on a main kitchen or bathroom circuit and then run your theater equipment from that.

Good luck and PM with any other questions.

Edit - if you do go with an electrician, have him look at PQ, quote for another breaker and make sure the loads are balanced on the breaker box. If all your load is coming from one side, he should be able to balance it for you. It's as simple as moving a few wires.

[silversnake]

Thanks guys so much for your replies, I knew I could get some answers.
Truth is, the apartment is renovated but it's still old, 50 years + if I remember correctly and the apartment is far from being great.

I think deep down inside I knew I was using too much but just find it hard to believe because I used to have those huge TV's, with the huge back (think 15 years ago) and that was definitely using more power than my new TV and I didn't have problems them.

But than again, I didn't have a PS3 , receiver, speakers, etc. I know for a fact that the HT and the bathroom are on the same breaker as if I turn off the switch, those are the only 2 rooms that turn off and it has a 20 on the switch. I just used the hair dryer as an example because ti would occur, my gf drys her hair in my bedroom now because of that so it's not something that's problematic but I was just curious. I guess I was spoiled when I lived in a house

Deads3t thanks a lot for the lengthy reply. Should i get an O-scope and a voltage meter separately or is that something you can both get in one? When you say have the electrician check for PQ, what do you mean by that?

I'm definitely not going to pay anything to repair something in this apartment considering I"m wanting to move very soon but I was more curious than anything about the whole situation. Not to mention that my landlord would never pay for it, he's cheap enough. I know now, that my first step after checking water pressure is how much power I can use in a new place.

I was just curious if bad electricity could harm my electronics or if it was just bad luck.

Thanks again guys

Also, do any of you guys know if I have any chance if renter's home insurance would cover something like loss of electronics or something I like that. I'm assuming no, but it woudn't hurt to ask.

[phlydude]

It may cover the loss of electronics...I'd suggest talking to your agent

Don't say anything other than "power surge" or "lightning strike" as the cause of the loss

[Psychonaut]

Hmm, interesting point this. This pc's power supply is about to die (new one ordered) and my upstairs tv keeps turning on and off and popping. This may be bad luck, as the tv is 10 years old with an ungodly amount of hours on it and the power supply for this one is about 5 years old (research revealed this model only lasts about a year) and the pc is always left on. Both are protected. I'm thinking bad luck and this gives me a chance to replace the CRT.

[toef]

Here's a really simple question, that shows my lack of understanding of most things electrical.

Say there's a circuit in my abode, that covers two rooms, let's call them 1 and 2. Each room has 4 outlets, which we'll call 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 2a, 2b, 2c, 2d.

The receptacle at 1d is showing up as an open ground. 1a through 1c are grounded. Everything in room 2 is also showing up as ungrounded.

I know for sure that the two rooms are on the same circuit, so is it possible that an issue at 1d is causing all the outlets downstream to be open grounds as well? Or does the lack of grounding at one outlet have nothing to do with any outlets anywhere else in the circuit?

I bought an outlet tester when I was at the store yesterday, and out of boredom starting plugging it into all the outlets here, and that's when I noticed the issue.

The rest of the outlets on the other circuits are all fine. So I figure it's either something odd with room 2, or maybe it really is just 1d causing trouble.

[Slec]

If the green wires in the above diagram are not capped well, they could have come loose. That could cause what you are describing on receptable 1d and on into room 2

[toef]

Originally Posted by Slec

If the green wires in the above diagram are not capped well, they could have come loose. That could cause what you are describing on receptable 1d and on into room 2

Ok, I'll take a look at 1d tomorrow. Hopefully it's something as simple as the grounding wire coming loose from the receptacle, which is something I can fix, rather than a more serious issue. It's too dark to shut off the power now.

[phlydude]

shut-off the power and pull the receptacle from the wall and check the connections...if it is an older house, it might not have had the grounding run all the way through, maybe just on a re-model of that room - that could be causing the issue

or if the box originally was metal and they went to plastic, the shielding on the cable could have been used for the ground and now is open...

with it not being your place, you are limited in what you can fix easily without tearing up the walls and stuff so just be careful and make sure the power is completely off before monkeying around

[Deadset]

Originally Posted by silversnake

Deads3t thanks a lot for the lengthy reply. Should i get an O-scope and a voltage meter separately or is that something you can both get in one? When you say have the electrician check for PQ, what do you mean by that?

I was just curious if bad electricity could harm my electronics or if it was just bad luck.

Also, do any of you guys know if I have any chance if renter's home insurance would cover something like loss of electronics or something I like that. I'm assuming no, but it woudn't hurt to ask.

What I would do is get a cheap voltmeter from Sears/Radio shack or you can probably find one online. All it'll do is show your voltage at the outlet. If it falls outside the threshold, you can get the utility to fix it for you. The O-scope comment was more of a "what I would do", if you don't have access to one, then don't worry about it.

When I said PQ, I meant Power Quality. There are whole departments setup in Utilities devoted to PQ. If you have issues, they should be able to send someone to at least test it out at your apartment. But remember they only are required to check the power supplied to the house/apt, the internal wiring is an owner issue.

To your comment about if power fluctuations can damage equipment, the answer is a definite maybe Typically, electronic designers design for certain AC power in and there is a threshold, anything below or above that and it'll blow fuses (if they are installed) or just simply wont turn on if it's got any logic to the device. But as long as you are in the acceptable range - check with your utility - then you should be OK.

Renters insurance can cover this, when I rented many years ago, I did have coverage on lightning storms blowing out my stuff. The deductible was high though, like $500.

Good luck and keep us informed!

[toef]

Originally Posted by phlydude

shut-off the power and pull the receptacle from the wall and check the connections...if it is an older house, it might not have had the grounding run all the way through, maybe just on a re-model of that room - that could be causing the issue

or if the box originally was metal and they went to plastic, the shielding on the cable could have been used for the ground and now is open...

with it not being your place, you are limited in what you can fix easily without tearing up the walls and stuff so just be careful and make sure the power is completely off before monkeying around

Thanks for the tips. I was thinking that maybe the outlets on the outer walls were grounded, since that seemed to be something people did a long time ago. I guess that's possible.

The receptacle boxes are metal, but the wiring looks to be wrapped in plastic sheathing rather than being BX cable. So I guess it's possible that some of the outlets just aren't grounded, and were replaced with ungrounded 3-prong.

So now the question is... is there a difference between an ungrounded 3-prong outlet and using a 3-prong adapter in an ungrounded 2-prong outlet, in terms of safety? Is one safer than the other (or should I say, is one less safe than the other?).

I know an ungrounded 3-prong outlet provides a false sense of reliability, in the sense that people will assume it's grounded (like I used to)... but is there actually any real difference between the options I mentioned, or should I leave them how they are?

Edit: Also, for more info... the outlets in question that aren't grounded are hooked up the same way all the grounded ones are. Just your standard wiring, with a grounding wire running from the receptacle to a screw in the back of the receptacle box. I'm wondering if at some point someone switched them all, and didn't realize that this one particular room wasn't grounded.

[phlydude]

Originally Posted by toefer

So now the question is... is there a difference between an ungrounded 3-prong outlet and using a 3-prong adapter in an ungrounded 2-prong outlet, in terms of safety? Is one safer than the other (or should I say, is one less safe than the other?).

I know an ungrounded 3-prong outlet provides a false sense of reliability, in the sense that people will assume it's grounded (like I used to)... but is there actually any real difference between the options I mentioned, or should I leave them how they are?

Edit: Also, for more info... the outlets in question that aren't grounded are hooked up the same way all the grounded ones are. Just your standard wiring, with a grounding wire running from the receptacle to a screw in the back of the receptacle box. I'm wondering if at some point someone switched them all, and didn't realize that this one particular room wasn't grounded.

I am not an electrician BUT ungrounded 3 prong is no more safe than an old 2 prong with an adapter
BUT
those adapters have a wing on them for a reason - the ground should be running to the ground screw in the center that holds on the coverplate. You can test this with a cheap circuit testing tool (has 2 wires and a LED light in the plastic part where the wires come from). Place the red in the right vertical and touch the black to the screw - if it lights up, use the adapter and screw it to the wall plate - you will be OK for now in terms of grounding.

If your boxes are fed with plastic coated wire and don't have a 3rd lead, all the connections from the box to the outlet don't mean squat if the cable isn't metal sheathed. The metal box is not secured to a path returning to the source and therefore doesn't meet code.
I also wonder if your wire is aluminum...if it is, don't overload it as it tends to get too hot and can cause shorts in the system (which could be related to your equipment blowing).

[Slec]

Toefer, another option would be to buy some grounding pigtails and ground the 3 prong receptacle to the back of the metal box (there will be screw holes back there already). I had to ground many of the boxes in my house this way because of its age.

[toef]

Originally Posted by phlydude

I am not an electrician BUT ungrounded 3 prong is no more safe than an old 2 prong with an adapter
BUT
those adapters have a wing on them for a reason - the ground should be running to the ground screw in the center that holds on the coverplate. You can test this with a cheap circuit testing tool (has 2 wires and a LED light in the plastic part where the wires come from). Place the red in the right vertical and touch the black to the screw - if it lights up, use the adapter and screw it to the wall plate - you will be OK for now in terms of grounding.

If your boxes are fed with plastic coated wire and don't have a 3rd lead, all the connections from the box to the outlet don't mean squat if the cable isn't metal sheathed. The metal box is not secured to a path returning to the source and therefore doesn't meet code.
I also wonder if your wire is aluminum...if it is, don't overload it as it tends to get too hot and can cause shorts in the system (which could be related to your equipment blowing).

Thanks for the response. I knew that the ungrounded 3-prong would not be any safer. My main question was whether it's actually LESS safe, and therefore should replace them with 2-prong, or if it's fine to just leave them alone. In the event that I ever used an adapter in the 2-prong, it wouldn't matter if I threaded the screw from the wall plate through the loop in the adapter, because the outlet isn't grounded anyway, right?

So is using an ungrounded 3-prong outlet essentially the same thing as using a 3-prong adapter in an ungrounded 2-prong outlet? Or does the grounding wire that's connecting the outlet to the receptacle box cause some sort of potential risk? (Obviously the grounding wire isn't doing anything, but whoever put the outlet in included that).

Originally Posted by Slec

Toefer, another option would be to buy some grounding pigtails and ground the 3 prong receptacle to the back of the metal box (there will be screw holes back there already). I had to ground many of the boxes in my house this way because of its age.

Yeah, the way they are currently set up, there is a green wire running from the grounding screw on the outlet/receptacle to a screw in the back of the receptacle box. I'm assuming they thought the box itself was grounded (since it's a metal box).