Is 2 better than 1?

[GAWD]

Question for you gurus...I currently have a Velodyne DPS 12" and was thinking of getting two HSU 10" subs. Would 2 10"ers be better than one 12"?

I love my Velodyne too death but I just keep hearing crazy stuff about HSU and SVS and well the STF2 would be the only one I could afford 2 of.

I'm just wondering if 2 10" subs would do what 1 12" sub can do.

[Audiophile_At_Birth]

Originally Posted by GAWD

Question for you gurus...I currently have a Velodyne DPS 12" and was thinking of getting two HSU 10" subs. Would 2 10"ers be better than one 12"?

I love my Velodyne too death but I just keep hearing crazy stuff about HSU and SVS and well the STF2 would be the only one I could afford 2 of.

I'm just wondering if 2 10" subs would do what 1 12" sub can do.

Yes.

Rule of thumb. Two subs will always play better than one with placement, dispersion, and room interaction.

If you double the watts (second sub) you gain 3db of output. If you double the cone area (second sub) you gain another 3db of output. So in total you could gain 6db in total output with two subs. When you calibrate them, the amps run with more headroom and have cleaner output (no distortion). With room interaction, I've seen some people gain up to 8db by adding a second sub. So yes, two ten inch subs can do a whole lot more for you than one twelve.

[progers13]

Originally Posted by Audiophile_At_Birth

Yes.

Rule of thumb. Two subs will always play better than one with placement, dispersion, and room interaction.

If you double the watts (second sub) you gain 3db of output. If you double the cone area (second sub) you gain another 3db of output. So in total you could gain 6db in total output with two subs. When you calibrate them, the amps run with more headroom and have cleaner output (no distortion). With room interaction, I've seen some people gain up to 8db by adding a second sub. So yes, two ten inch subs can do a whole lot more for you than one twelve.

+1 on this post.

When I added my second sub (granted, it was a 12"), I calibrated each of them to 78 dbs individually. When I ran them both simultaneously, they were putting out 85 ~ 86 dbs (an increase of 7 ~ 8 dbs). I was able to lower their gains and still get the same level of output, but I freed up more head room so I'm not putting any strain on the amps. Plus, 2 is always better than one because it provides a more even response over the listening area, whereas one sub will give you more of an uneven response.

I would say two 10" subs will be better than one 12" sub, but I would also contend that two 12" are even better than two 10" subs.

[GAWD]

Thanks for the info guys. I wish I can get 2x12" but can't afford it right now. Checking my options on getting some HSU 10inchers.

I knew about the benefits of running two subs for standing waves and such but I never thought 2 smaller subs would actually be better than one bigger one. Always figured the bigger one would go lower and hit harder.

[GregBe]

That is something to consider. Adding multiple subs will not change how deep the subs will play.

I would say in general, yes two are better than one because of the reasons in the good advice from the two previous posts. I would also say that "always" is a pretty strong statement. In my room for example, I have found a spot in my room that gives me a flat even response across all seats on my couch. I would rather have one better sounding/bigger sub in that one spot, than have two subs that might mess up my already good response. In fact, that is what I did. I was debating adding a second SVS PB10 to my system, but I sold it and bought one AV123 MFW15.

As in everything audio, there are no absolutes.

[Audiophile_At_Birth]

Originally Posted by GregBe

That is something to consider. Adding multiple subs will not change how deep the subs will play.

I would say in general, yes two are better than one because of the reasons in the good advice from the two previous posts. I would also say that "always" is a pretty strong statement. In my room for example, I have found a spot in my room that gives me a flat even response across all seats on my couch. I would rather have one better sounding/bigger sub in that one spot, than have two subs that might mess up my already good response. In fact, that is what I did. I was debating adding a second SVS PB10 to my system, but I sold it and bought one AV123 MFW15.

As in everything audio, there are no absolutes.

If you calibrate the sub correctly, you could take away a lot of the peaks while still allowing that 6-8db in the 20hz area. Sure bigger subs will go louder and deeper, but to get the benefits of one sub over two, you're looking at jumping up in the caliber level of the sub. With two subs you are getting more output down low, raising dips, and with calibration you could lower peaks which is always better for the sub amp than raising dips. In the end you could have a very flat frequency response that hits just as hard and sounds smoother throughout the room than one twelve or fifteen inch sub.

And by having two subs, your perceived frequency response gains 2-3hz in the -/3db output range. Sure you could have one huge sub that is flat down to around 18hz...but that 10 inch sub that is flat to around 20hz and having a second, means you are in the same 17-18hz flat frequency range as your huge sub.

[GregBe]

Originally Posted by Audiophile_At_Birth

If you calibrate the sub correctly, you could take away a lot of the peaks while still allowing that 6-8db in the 20hz area. Sure bigger subs will go louder and deeper, but to get the benefits of one sub over two, you're looking at jumping up in the caliber level of the sub. With two subs you are getting more output down low, raising dips, and with calibration you could lower peaks which is always better for the sub amp than raising dips. In the end you could have a very flat frequency response that hits just as hard and sounds smoother throughout the room than one twelve or fifteen inch sub.

And by having two subs, your perceived frequency response gains 2-3hz in the -/3db output range. Sure you could have one huge sub that is flat down to around 18hz...but that 10 inch sub that is flat to around 20hz and having a second, means you are in the same 17-18hz flat frequency range as your huge sub.

I am not sure I am following you. How does adding a second identical sub create a deeper response? Your advice is solid, and I would recommend two subs over one in most situations, but it really depends on your room, and the response you are getting. There is no need to lower peaks if they are not there. Sure, if your response is all over the place, adding a second sub should help that, but GAWD is saying that he loves his current sub. Maybe he is already getting a flat response in his room. Adding a second sub might mess that up. I would easily take one good 12-15" sub placed and calibrated correctly over two smaller subs, unless I was trying to fix a problem in my room. Until you measure what your current sub is doing, you may be creating more problems than you started with.

[DarkDune]

Uh, yes!

Two is better!

Next question?

[Audiophile_At_Birth]

Originally Posted by GregBe

I am not sure I am following you. How does adding a second identical sub create a deeper response? Your advice is solid, and I would recommend two subs over one in most situations, but it really depends on your room, and the response you are getting. There is no need to lower peaks if they are not there. Sure, if your response is all over the place, adding a second sub should help that, but GAWD is saying that he loves his current sub. Maybe he is already getting a flat response in his room. Adding a second sub might mess that up. I would easily take one good 12-15" sub placed and calibrated correctly over two smaller subs, unless I was trying to fix a problem in my room. Until you measure what your current sub is doing, you may be creating more problems than you started with.

I said perceived response is lower. Subs roll off till there output in none at a certain frequency. A sub could be -/+3db to 20hz, but still have decent output at 18hz. But gaining the 6-8db you would out of having a second sub, you raise the perceived roll-off to a lower frequency. So lets say that at 20hz a sub outputs at 100db@ 0.1% THD for kicks. Then at 18hz its output is 90db@ 0.1% THD. By adding a second sub, the output at 18hz is 97db@ 1%THD. And output at 20hz is now raised to 107db. You equalize that increase, and thus have a flatter response down to 17-18hz versus having a flat response down to just 20hz.

Then you also have to consider the quality of a good 10" sub versus an ok 15" sub. There are just to many factors that play into having a single sub to make it sound good THROUGHOUT the whole room versus having two subs. I'm sure that your frequency response at your listening area is flat, but what happens if I move to an area that is 1/3 the wavelength of the frequency, you have a dip and bass void. So unless you're room has been treated with acoustic property panels, bass traps, it's hard to get a flat frequency response across all areas of the room, and not just the 'hot seat'.

[callas01]

Hsu subs are awesome performers, you will be very pleased with their performance. Yes 2 would be better then 1.

[GregBe]

Originally Posted by Audiophile_At_Birth

I said perceived response is lower. Subs roll off till there output in none at a certain frequency. A sub could be -/+3db to 20hz, but still have decent output at 18hz. But gaining the 6-8db you would out of having a second sub, you raise the perceived roll-off to a lower frequency. So lets say that at 20hz a sub outputs at 100db@ 0.1% THD for kicks. Then at 18hz its output is 90db@ 0.1% THD. By adding a second sub, the output at 18hz is 97db@ 1%THD. And output at 20hz is now raised to 107db. You equalize that increase, and thus have a flatter response down to 17-18hz versus having a flat response down to just 20hz.

Then you also have to consider the quality of a good 10" sub versus an ok 15" sub. There are just to many factors that play into having a single sub to make it sound good THROUGHOUT the whole room versus having two subs. I'm sure that your frequency response at your listening area is flat, but what happens if I move to an area that is 1/3 the wavelength of the frequency, you have a dip and bass void. So unless you're room has been treated with acoustic property panels, bass traps, it's hard to get a flat frequency response across all areas of the room, and not just the 'hot seat'.

I get what you are saying, and I certainly am not advocating that 1 sub is better than two. In most situations, two is better than one. I am just saying if you are getting a good response in your room, I would rather have one good 15" over two good 10" subs. Just two examples off the top of my head. I would rather have 1 eD A5-350 over 2 eD A3-250...I would rather have one HSU VTF-3 MK3 over two HSU VTF-1 (with change left over).

If my room response was all over the place in multiple seats, I would consider two of the 10" over the 15" in my above examples, but in my room, I have found a spot for my sub that gives me the same response across all of my seats on my couch. With some minor eQ, I get a flat response in all of the seats.

[kareface]

Originally Posted by Audiophile_At_Birth

I said perceived response is lower. Subs roll off till there output in none at a certain frequency. A sub could be -/+3db to 20hz, but still have decent output at 18hz. But gaining the 6-8db you would out of having a second sub, you raise the perceived roll-off to a lower frequency. So lets say that at 20hz a sub outputs at 100db@ 0.1% THD for kicks. Then at 18hz its output is 90db@ 0.1% THD. By adding a second sub, the output at 18hz is 97db@ 1%THD. And output at 20hz is now raised to 107db. You equalize that increase, and thus have a flatter response down to 17-18hz versus having a flat response down to just 20hz.

I don't disagree with this, but I thought I'd play devils advocate. Assuming you aren't hurting your head room wouldn't a good single sub turned above the SPL of the system then equalized down also have the same effect? You're also assuming that the receiver wouldn't just set the level lower to the subs (assuming you are like most people who run audyssey). It seems more likely that the added sub would help increase the pressure to displacement ratio, increasing SPL at frequencies below room resonance, but that's more room dependent.

[GAWD]

After all is said and done I can count out HSU subs. With shipping and everything it's cost me well over 1000$ for 2 10" subs.

Now I'm just contemplating getting another DPS -12 or one DLS5000r.

We'll see what happens.

thanks for the info guys. Many good points and pretty much what I've read.

2 subs smoother sound...1 sub lower sound.

How would 1 SVS sound against two Velos I'll never know but that's just another can of worms lol NO COMMENTS ON THAT ONE PLS!!

[callas01]

Originally Posted by GAWD

After all is said and done I can count out HSU subs. With shipping and everything it's cost me well over 1000$ for 2 10" subs.

Now I'm just contemplating getting another DPS -12 or one DLS5000r.

We'll see what happens.

thanks for the info guys. Many good points and pretty much what I've read.

2 subs smoother sound...1 sub lower sound.

How would 1 SVS sound against two Velos I'll never know but that's just another can of worms lol NO COMMENTS ON THAT ONE PLS!!

You can try calling Hsu and talking with them, they may cut you a small discount on shipping. Or go for a bigger sub, maybe their VTF-2 MK3 and pair it with your Velodyne

SVS also charges for shipping, I think it is more then Hsu charges too.

[jaeelarr]

Originally Posted by GAWD

After all is said and done I can count out HSU subs. With shipping and everything it's cost me well over 1000$ for 2 10" subs.

Not true, unless you live over seas or in Canada.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

$319 + 37 X 2 = much less than $1000.

[sarge1976]

If you add a second sub does it have to be the same make and model or can you use a different brand? also, does the wattage need to be the same? Thanks.

[callas01]

Originally Posted by sarge1976

If you add a second sub does it have to be the same make and model or can you use a different brand? also, does the wattage need to be the same? Thanks.

it doesn't have to be the same make or model or company, I am going to have an eD and an Acoustic Audio in my setup. I think it makes it easier to calibrate when they are the same. And they would have very similar characteristics making them sound more similar. That said, if you do have a 12" 200 watt with a 18-110 response and a 12" 150 watt 27-150 response, it is usually suggest that you put the one with the lower, deeper reach up front near the front sound stage and the other near your seating area, that way the deep heavy bass comes from the front and the upper bass that you hear more easily comes from the near field.

[JBL4645]

It takes two subs to tango.

[sarge1976]

Originally Posted by callas01

it doesn't have to be the same make or model or company, I am going to have an eD and an Acoustic Audio in my setup. I think it makes it easier to calibrate when they are the same. And they would have very similar characteristics making them sound more similar. That said, if you do have a 12" 200 watt with a 18-110 response and a 12" 150 watt 27-150 response, it is usually suggest that you put the one with the lower, deeper reach up front near the front sound stage and the other near your seating area, that way the deep heavy bass comes from the front and the upper bass that you hear more easily comes from the near field.

Cool, thanks for the info. I have a Velodyne DEQ-15R(15" sub) and I have a Infinity PS-12 (12" sub) which I have in my bedroom and I have been thinking about bringing the Infinity down and adding it to my HT setup. Do you think this would sound ok? Thanks

[callas01]

Originally Posted by sarge1976

Cool, thanks for the info. I have a Velodyne DEQ-15R(15" sub) and I have a Infinity PS-12 (12" sub) which I have in my bedroom and I have been thinking about bringing the Infinity down and adding it to my HT setup. Do you think this would sound ok? Thanks

Yes it should sound just fine. You will want to get an SPL Meter and have test tones on one while the other is off and calibrate it to about 72 db and then do the same to the other, once that is done, you should have about a 76-78 db level for your sub output, and the bass will sound smooth and full with the rest of your system. Then have the rest of your system calibrated to 80-85 dbs. There is a sticky on it in either the receiver or speaker forum.

here you go
https://forum.blu-ray.com/receivers-...spl-meter.html