Cheap 120hz or better brand 60hz?

[kinoeye]

Hi All,

Looking for a little advice here. I have been watching, and thoroughly enjoying, BD's on my girlfriend's old, cheap, small (27" or so I think), 720 television. I haven't even bothered very much with image settings, knowing it's never going to be that great looking of a television.

The time has come to upgrade. I've been working a contract in the arctic circle, earned some decent coin, and have 6 Blu Ray discs waiting for me from amazon upon my return. It's time to get a better television.

I want something in the 40"-49". I want 1080p. I want something with 120hz. I want something on which you can turn the over-scan off. My question is this: how are those cheaper brands like Dynex and Insignia? Insignia has a good priced 42" 120hz LCD TV but I keep reading conflicting reviews of these products. What I think of as more respectable brands with 120hz seem to cost a lot more, putting them out of my price range.

I'll keep researching, but wanted to see if anyone here has any advice.

Cheers!

[maygit]

Good brand 60hz.

Reason:
Nearly all people that are wowed by 120hz sets are not being blown away by the 120hz but rather a motion enhancer coupled with the 120hz. For example, Samsung's AutoMotion Plus or Sony's MotionFlow. This adds computer generated frames into the video giving a more realistic motion. Cheaper brands have worse versions of this technology and the computer often makes mistakes in generating new frames which causes artifacts in the picture making it look crappy. You can turn off this motion enhancement technology but then the picture to 99% of the population does not look any different from a 60hz tv. With that said, i would not take a cheap brands 120hz set and would do a name brand 60hz instead.

P.S. Yes, Vizios motion enhancer is bad also.

[STARSCREAM]

I'd take a 120hz set with motion enhancement. I like the "live" look it gives and the 3D effect it gives, especially on CGI stuff.

P.S. Vizio's motion enhancer is fine, looks really good to me.

[HHX]

pretty much what maygit said. 120 is kinda like 1080P- it's far from being the only thing you gotta look at when you are shopping for a TV. there are hundreds of other things that make up the performance of a set. (color accuracy, scaling, black levels, noise reduction, access to some controls like white balance and so on...)

Example-I'd go with a Samsung B550 series LCD which is 60Hz over an Insignia 120 or another entry level 120Hz model because overall it will perform better in almost every situation and programming.

[cawgijoe]

Look for on-line reviews. These days you just can't assume that a Samsung is better than a Vizio for example just because of brand name.

Do some research first.

[Semp1]

Sony EX-500 40 inch to 55 inch if you know where to go starts at 700-1500.

[The Dragon]

Sony and Samsung are proven over Vizio... Period.

[steve1971]

Personally I would go with either Sony or Samsung but its your money and your choice. I would stay away from Insignia or Dynex because I hear they aint very reliable and they have issues. Vizio seems to be turning the corner as far as reliability goes so you may want to look at them as well.

Just my take.

[Wingman1977]

Originally Posted by steve1971

Personally I would go with either Sony or Samsung but its your money and your choice. I would stay away from Insignia or Dynex because I hear they aint very reliable and they have issues. Vizio seems to be turning the corner as far as reliability goes so you may want to look at them as well.

Just my take.

Best answer.

[Jcole20323]

I have had a Vizio GV42LF 1080p for almost three years now and have never had an issue with it. I also have a 46 inch Sharp 1080p 120hz and I must say the only time I actually use the 120hz is when I am watching a CGI blu ray likes Bugs Life etc. I like the look its gives it otherwise I never use it. If I had to do it all over again I probably would have bought a bigger 60hz tv rather than the 120hz.

[dereksworl]

depends if notice motion blur and motion judder. if so, go with 120Hz. 120Hz can properly display 24p which reduces judder for a more 'filmic' look. 120Hz will also help combat motion blur, though you will most likely still notice it.........i do anyway......

PS. you can find some older 60Hz Sonys that also have MotionFlow™

[STARSCREAM]

Originally Posted by dereksworl

depends if notice motion blur and motion judder. if so, go with 120Hz. 120Hz can properly display 24p which reduces judder for a more 'filmic' look. 120Hz will also help combat motion blur, though you will most likely still notice it.........i do anyway......

PS. you can find some older 60Hz Sonys that also have MotionFlow™

+1. Motion blur and especially judder on pans is what really made me go 120hz as I couldn't stand it. I couldn't go without atleast 120hz now.

[martymagicman]

I used to work at Best Buy. You can pick up a Sony 40" 120 hz for around $800.00 plus get a Sony Blu ray player too.Get the 120 hz, you can always tun it off. Your eyes will actually get used to watching a better picture with it on. Best Buy price matches so LOOK around. Use their 18 or 30 month credit, no interest, just dont's miss a payment. $100.00 a month will keep you safe. Forget Insignia and Dynex, they won't make you happy. As for Vizio, I've seen more Vizio's returned at Costco than anything else. Yes Sonys are pricey, they also CREATED the Blu Ray format. I have never had to upgrade my Sony Blu ray player. Sounds like you might move around in your job. Sonys are DURABLE. It might be worth your while to get the extended warreny IF you move that TV around alot. Hope this was helpful.
Enjoy!

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by martymagicman

I used to work at Best Buy. You can pick up a Sony 40" 120 hz for around $800.00 plus get a Sony Blu ray player too.Get the 120 hz, you can always tun it off. Your eyes will actually get used to watching a better picture with it on.

No, you can't. 120Hz is the refresh rate of the set, and is not adjustable. You are referring to motion enhancement, and "better picture" is a completely subjective statement. Those who enjoy watching movies the way they were originally presented by the director do not agree that motion-interpolation produces a "better picture".

[maygit]

**Skip to bottom if you don't need training.

120hz training for those who are confused:

Film is recorded at 24 frames/still pictures(known as 24p) per second. Video is recorded at 30 frames/still pictures (30p) per second. The way US TV's are designed to avoid a noticeable strobe light effect in the picture, we need to display at least 60 frames every second. This is easy for video because they can just display each frame twice before moving onto the next frame. However, it's not so easy with film. Therefore, they display frame 1 twice, then frame 2 three times, frame 3 twice, frame 4 three times and so forth. This works but causes the side effect known as judder because the amount of time each frame is held on screen is uneven, creating a fast, slow, fast, slow effect.

If you notice the judder problem when watching movies then 120hz will benefit you by getting rid of that because each frame of film can be displayed evenly 5 times.

Next to know is that most 120hz tv's come coupled with motion enhancers(and the 60hz models V5100 or VE5 from Sony). These enhancers can be turned on, off, or adjusted to the preferred level of enhancement. The enhancers purpose is to reduce the natural blur our eyes create when watching film or video. This natural blur occurs on every TV and is because, compared to real life, film/video have too big of gaps between each individual frame of an object moving. Our eyes/brain can't make sense of how that object got from point A to C without B in between, so it naturally blurs the two together a bit. Motion Enhancers create that B frame, resulting in less eye blur. Keep in mind, some people do not like this effect, especially while watching movies because they like that look of film. I'm on the other side and prefer it always on.

There is a difference as to how accurate the computer can make that B frame look. Lower branded manufacturers have more of a knock off version that does not as accurately develop that B frame, which results in more glitches and artifacts in the picture. This to me is unwatchable and results in me turning off the enhancement. Therefore, i wouldn't buy a cheap 120hz set because i don't see judder, few actually do, and w/o the enhancement turned on, i would have a crappy picture. I would rather put that money into a good 60hz tv .

**************************************************

Some are mistaken by my "P.S. Vizio" statement. I did not argue their reliability, i argued their picture compared to name brands. I mentioned them because they are basically the king of cheap tv's and some see them as name brand. However, they are still cheap tv's. They do not create any parts in their products and thus resort to buying generation old parts from companies in order to output low priced goods. Name brand companies do make a lot of parts in their products or buy the most up to date parts from well known manufacturers.

On paper Vizios specs look great compared to others but WHEN COMPARED IN PICTURE QUALITY next to a name brand like Sony or Samsung, you'll see a very big difference things like contrast ratios(black levels), brightness, viewing angles, color production, and so on. With that said, if your uncle louis has a vizio and it's the greatest thing in the world, that's awesome, ignorance is bliss just don't walk into your local electronics store other than walmart and see it next to a sony or samsung. In most situations Vizios are the best value, not the best offered.

So, here's the scoop.

1. Going with a 60hz tv? Get a plasma. Typically the best bang for the buck.
2. Glare issues? K, then name brand LCD.
3. Low on Cash? Save up for name brand or if u must have it now, Vizio.
4. Want 120hz? Go with name brand.
5. Low on Cash but want 120hz? Start with step 1.
6. Can't stand judder and low on cash? Go with Vizio, consider turning off motion enhancer forever.
7. Really badly want the motion enhancer? Go with name brand or Sony's 60hz V5100 or VE5 models. Although, the V5100 or VE5 is usually about as expensive as 120hz Samsungs 650 series and the 650 is much better.
8. Disagree? Drop me a message.

[cawgijoe]

Ok.....time for some reality check.

Vizio is a name brand. Some Vizio sets are rated very well.....i.e., 551 and 552 LED backlit sets. Check out the reviews.....not perfect, but very good. I have a friend who owns a 551 and it produces a beautiful image with blu-rays.

Most if not all manufacturers use parts bought from other companies or made by other companies including their panels. That includes Sony.

Vizio saves money by having their sets manufactured in Taiwan to their specs. I've read that they also only have one building in California with about 40 people working for them. Thats a huge savings in overhead costs as compared to most other companies.

Some of the current reviews especially on the edge-lit Sony and Samsung sets are getting poor reviews for PQ....flashlighting......uniformity issues....blue blacks.........look at cnet's review of the NX800 and EX700......also the upcoming June review in Home Theater magazine of the NX800..........what's up with that?

Don't get me wrong, I love Sony......I have always bought Sony sets my whole life.......only own one 32" Vizio..........but the problem is that for little, less, or no improvement, I'm seeing that I have to pay more and sometimes alot more for a so-called "name brand" set. Why is that?

We all have our brand predudices and what I say here or what anyone else says isn't going to sway anyone who has made up their mind.......what everyone really needs to do is view the sets for themselves......research.....check out reviews.....both personal and professional and then decide what is best for them.

[steve1971]

"Some of the current reviews especially on the edge-lit Sony and Samsung sets are getting poor reviews for PQ....flashlighting......uniformity issues....blue blacks.........look at cnet's review of the NX800 and EX700......also the upcoming June review in Home Theater magazine of the NX800..........what's up with that?"


Isnt the LED and edge lit thing supposed to solve some of those problems cawgijoe is talking about? I have to say this and thats that I have saw some of Sony's new tv's and to me they are ugly as hell looks wise not PQ wise. But again here I though the Edge Lit thing and LED thing were supposed to solve some of the flashlighting, blue blacks ect but I guess not. I'll stay with what I have thank you very much!!

[Memnoch71]

I just picked up a LG 42" Model LG-42LH40, it's 1080p, 120hz and it got a pretty good review from CNET. Fry's had them for $598 and I had Best Buy (was $799 on sale there) price match it. I got online and found the Calibration settings and did it myself and then fine tuned it to my liking, it looks great and for the Price it was a Very Good deal.

All of that to say, look around and find one that you like in your price range. Untill I went out and started comparing Sets side by side I wasn't even thinking about an LG, but then I lucked out on the Deal. There was also a very good deal on a Panasonic 42" Plasma if you would rather go that way, Just look around and see what looks best to you.

[maygit]

Originally Posted by cawgijoe

Ok.....time for some reality check.

Vizio is a name brand. Some Vizio sets are rated very well.....i.e., 551 and 552 LED backlit sets. Check out the reviews.....not perfect, but very good. I have a friend who owns a 551 and it produces a beautiful image with blu-rays.

I classify name brand as first tier companies. Companies that make parts for their products and other manufacturers. This would be companies like Sony, Samsung, LG, Panasonic, Sharp, Toshiba, and at the very bottom of the list Phillips/Magnavox. Second Tier companies, to me, are those that do not make their own parts but rather assemble sets and redistribute them. Vizio would be at the top of that list. Finally third tier companies do not make their own parts and have horrible reliability. I don't know any examples but walk into walmart and i'm sure u'll see a wall full.

Most if not all manufacturers use parts bought from other companies or made by other companies including their panels. That includes Sony.

...I know...I said that in my above post. However, they still do make some parts in their own displays; therefore, they do not rely 100% on other manufacturers.

Vizio saves money by having their sets manufactured in Taiwan to their specs. I've read that they also only have one building in California with about 40 people working for them. Thats a huge savings in overhead costs as compared to most other companies.

+1 you win on this one. I knew about the california facility but didn't hear about the Taiwan place. Although, i will add that a lot of companies are moving factories to China now which is a large reduction in manufacturing costs as well. Manufacturers also cut large costs by no longer assembling the pedistals on tv's anymore. 2 tv generations ago sets were fully assembled and boxed. With last generations tv's consumers had to attatch the pedistals to the tv's. Most new models being released now require the consumer to first assemble the pedistal together and then assemble it to the tv. Tv Boxes are more than half the thickness that they were 2 generations ago, which saves huge amounts there, and they don't have to pay workers to preassemble the pedistals or attatch them to the tv's anymore.

Some of the current reviews especially on the edge-lit Sony and Samsung sets are getting poor reviews for PQ....flashlighting......uniformity issues....blue blacks.........look at cnet's review of the NX800 and EX700......also the upcoming June review in Home Theater magazine of the NX800..........what's up with that?

Flashlighting issues are only on Samsung displays with the UltraClear Panel(series 650 and up). It is somewhat crappy, but as long as you get one of their S panel displays, you should be clear of this issue. The other issues that you listed are on every LCD available because that is just a problem with the LCD technology in general. Haven't read either review but i'll just assume they were bad. All i can say is that id buy samsung over sony because they offer the same or better PQ generally for a slightly lower cost.

Don't get me wrong, I love Sony......I have always bought Sony sets my whole life.......only own one 32" Vizio..........but the problem is that for little, less, or no improvement, I'm seeing that I have to pay more and sometimes alot more for a so-called "name brand" set. Why is that?

You need to shop around more. Online is more often than not your best place to buy a TV. Amazon will typically have really good prices on their products. If you prefer in-store buying, go to best buy or sears. Both places will have similar or the same prices, they both price match, and if you use their credit card, they will often take a % off the product. Ex: Sears right now has 10% or 18mo on electronic buys over $999. Sears also has "family and friend" nights once a month on sundays with an additional 5-10% off certain electronics.

We all have our brand predudices and what I say here or what anyone else says isn't going to sway anyone who has made up their mind.......what everyone really needs to do is view the sets for themselves......research.....check out reviews.....both personal and professional and then decide what is best for them.

True to an extent. Most consumers don't have the time or knowledge to chose the tv that is right for them. Basically, the best they can do is drop a price range that they are willing to spend, a size, and maybe some basic specs that they are looking for. From there, most people will agree on about 3 or 4 models that would work well. After the buyer gets those models, then they easily do research to deside or go in store to decide as well.

The final thing i will point out is that higher end companies have higher expectations. If a sony or samsung has an issue, a lot more people will be surprised by that and it will get a lot more attention vs a lower end because that's almost expected in lesser brands. Plus, it's more likely that a problem would be noticed in a sony or samsung because more videophiles buy their products and are more likely to spot an issue and make a complaint about it vs uncle louis and his vizio.

[cawgijoe]

I agree with some of the above points, but not all.

I shop extremely well for my electronics and bought my Sony KV-34XBR800 from OneCall at at fantastic price. The Vizio was bought at Costco.

It appears that some folks will never be convinced that Vizio is or will ever be any good because they are not a traditional brand. Nothing wrong with that and that's fine. We all need to buy what we like.

I will be buying a new set later this year and depending on reviews and cost, will either putrchase a Sony HX900 or a Vizio 55" PRO set. Based on how good our 32" set has been, I will not rule the Vizio out.

The above sets will be fully backlit with local dimming. Based on all the poor reviews on edge-lit sets as well as all the complaints on AVSForum concerning flashilighting on Samsung sets.....even the newer ones, I will stay away from these. It appears that LED edge-lighting doesn't do much but make your set super skinny as well as increase the companie's bottom line by using far fewer LED's.