Deadset's HT Build Thread

[Deadset]

Ok, Beta I did use your idea, but it was a good one! I'm starting this thread to get some ideas on setup for a projector and a projector that will suit my needs. I'm looking for a 1080p projector in the price range of $2500 or less. I have a unique setup, but first some background.

I'm finishing our basement and the plan was to keep an open floor plan, add a 4th bedroom, minibar and a great room that 1/2 will be a theater, the other 1/2 will be kid stuff. It's been a busy year, new baby and 9 months of building, wiring and plumbing, but the current plan is to be done by December and then I'll be getting a projector at that time.

Planning

To start out with, I came up with a floor plan before the building ever began in Jan 2008.

The birds eye view of the basement

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1...ayout01kh8.jpg

The minibar setup

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6...ayout01ta2.jpg

Basement Build

Currently, I've done the framing, wiring, plumbing and am about 85% done with the sheetrock. I've done all it my self, but plan on hiring out the mudding and texturing.

Starting from scratch, view of future projection wall



View of the duct work and far wall / rec room area, mini-bar to the right


View of the projection wall


Built in blu-ray storage, 1 of 2 built-ins pictured


Side view of the movie room, duct work


5' mini-bar


Change in Plan

Once the planning was done, it was time to start building. At first, I was planning on the TV being a large screen, probably 63" or so... I wired up the basement as such, towards the end of wiring I was reading about projectors and I think it was rogman who convinced me the joys of owning one (plus all the other well informed HT junkies on here).

Some setup challenges

The Limitations are shown in a very rough pic below

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/4887/ht01zz9.jpg

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/8152/ht02bh3.jpg

As you can tell, the ductwork is going to be an issue, well at least I think it is. I ran a 32' HDMI cable and wired up an outlet in the ductwork frame and just last weekend, I added 4 more support cross arms to support the weight of the projector at various mounting distances.

The center of the wall is pretty much right where the projector is going to mount, so there's really no concern with with horizontal shifting.

Vertical Offset

Here is where I'm a bit sketchy, I've seen some projectors at projectorcentral.com that have this in their calculation and some that do not. Does this mean some have internal offsetting?

The projector will hang down from the 7' of space I have from the duct work about 5 to 6", and it'll probably be about a foot long. That said, my throw distance at a maximum will be 12' from the front of the lens to the wall mounted screen.

Also another concern I have is noise and heat. I've read some projectors are noisy and that is a big concern I have, since it's going to be lower and just behind the seating.

Viewing Habits

Obviously I love watching movies and blu-rays are great but...I have several TV shows in SD and am a big MST3K fan, so I need a projector that does display SD as well as my JVC LCD 40" TV.

I'm not a big football fan, but I will watch hockey in HD down there.

I'll also be playing games and could possibly hook up the computer to my future receiver - but the PC thing will be rare...

Summary

1. With an 11' viewing distance, a maximum throw distance of 12' what projectors do you guys recommend? I'm looking at the AE2000U due to some the flexible setup features it offers.

2. I really need a quiet projector.

3. If I have to have an offset from where the projector hangs, can I still have 100" screen, with the hight being 49" (I'm good on width of 87) and still have room for a low component shelf below the screen? Will my viewing distance be too close for 100" screen?

4. Are there any projectors that you can recommend that satisfy my viewing habits?

Any other input you can give would be appreciated. This will be my first projector. I've read lots of posts and really haven't decided on one projector, lots of people recommend the sanyo, epson and panny, but am also looking for other suggestions with my setup challenges.

More pictures to follow!

Edited the thread with pictures and links to larger files to make it more readable.

[Beta Man]

Can't wait to see the progress!!!! your sketch etc. are far more detailed than I could do :P

[Deadset]

It's what I call back of the digital napkin sketches

[Beta Man]

are you considering putting an LCD/Plasma behind the projection screen??? (I am ) That would be good for Standard Def......

I need to try to put some time on the theater.... the room is complete thankfully!!! (unlike yours, waiting for mudding etc....) but I have SO MUCH ELSE to do with the house..... I purchased 21 GALLONS of paint and primer (Sherwin Williams Durabond) and the crazy part is.... I'm picking up 10 more gallons tomorrow At least I'm getting a good deal on the paint, but my shoulder feels like it's going to fall off from all of the mudding/sanding/painting.... I've got contractors taking care of other big projects, so I can't complain. Good luck with your build.... I'll be keeping an eye on it!!!!!!!!

[SquidPuppet]

Now there are 2 of you pissing me off with your projects of passion.

[Deadset]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

are you considering putting an LCD/Plasma behind the projection screen??? (I am ) That would be good for Standard Def......

I need to try to put some time on the theater.... the room is complete thankfully!!! (unlike yours, waiting for mudding etc....) but I have SO MUCH ELSE to do with the house..... I purchased 21 GALLONS of paint and primer (Sherwin Williams Durabond) and the crazy part is.... I'm picking up 10 more gallons tomorrow At least I'm getting a good deal on the paint, but my shoulder feels like it's going to fall off from all of the mudding/sanding/painting.... I've got contractors taking care of other big projects, so I can't complain. Good luck with your build.... I'll be keeping an eye on it!!!!!!!!

Beta, I haven't even thought of putting an LCD behind my screen. That may be an option if I can't find a solution to my problem. I was really hoping to find a projector that displayed SD near the same quality as an LCD, so if any of you projector guru's have any experience with yours, fill me in please

I like your movie room pics, can't wait to see it complete and I'll bet you'll have it done waaaaay before I'm complete. Rogman has some cool pics of his theater, and I'm hoping to get seating similar to his.

I hear ya on the paint, it's not enough that the mouse kills my arm, but painting as well. Thanks for the post and will keep an eye out on yours as well.

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Deads3t

Beta, I haven't even thought of putting an LCD behind my screen. That may be an option if I can't find a solution to my problem. I was really hoping to find a projector that displayed SD near the same quality as an LCD, so if any of you projector guru's have any experience with yours, fill me in please

A lot of modern PJ's incorporate internal scalars to upconvert SD content to the PJ's native resolution. Most of the better ones out there use the Gennum VXP processor. The upscaling on these PJ's is good, although any upscaled SD on a big screen is going to look pretty crappy compared to HD material. I don't think upscaling on flat panels is any better, it's just the size of the screen that accentuates the limitation of the technique. One of the best scalars out there is the Lumagen Radiance, which is an outboard scalar that also uses the Gennum VXP. However, it would run you ~$3k on top of what you spend for your PJ. It does have other advantages beyond being a top notch scalar, but whether you need those features or not depends on your setup. Either way, unfortunately, putting lipstick on a pig doesn't change the fact that it (SD material, not Sarah Palin ) is still a pig.

For your PJ choices, CEDIA just concluded and these new PJs are definitely worth a look:

JVC RS20 aka HD750
JVC RS10 aka HD350
Epson 6500UB and 7500UB
Panasonic AE3000

The price points for the Epson 6500UB, Panny, and lower end JVC are going to be VERY competitive for 1080p projectors.

[Deadset]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

A lot of modern PJ's incorporate internal scalars to upconvert SD content to the PJ's native resolution. Most of the better ones out there use the Gennum VXP processor. The upscaling on these PJ's is good, although any upscaled SD on a big screen is going to look pretty crappy compared to HD material. I don't think upscaling on flat panels is any better, it's just the size of the screen that accentuates the limitation of the technique. One of the best scalars out there is the Lumagen Radiance, which is an outboard scalar that also uses the Gennum VXP. However, it would run you ~$3k on top of what you spend for your PJ. It does have other advantages beyond being a top notch scalar, but whether you need those features or not depends on your setup. Either way, unfortunately, putting lipstick on a pig doesn't change the fact that it (SD material, not Sarah Palin ) is still a pig.

Thanks, your posts are always helpful. I didn't know you could get an outboard scalar, very strange but probably a bit out of my budget since most my $ is tied up in the build itself.

Just curious if you watch SD on your projector? Any chance for a screen shot of quality? I'm pretty tolerant when it comes to watching SD on a HDTV (I still own a vcr), but I really want it to be similar to my upconversion that happens from PS3 to my LCD 40". I realize as the size of the screen gets bigger, your quality will decrease.. Is there a way to scale the projecting image smaller when watching SD via remote?

For your PJ choices, CEDIA just concluded and these new PJs are definitely worth a look:

JVC RS20 aka HD750
JVC RS10 aka HD350
Epson 6500UB and 7500UB
Panasonic AE3000

The price points for the Epson 6500UB, Panny, and lower end JVC are going to be VERY competitive for 1080p projectors.

Thanks, I'll look at these. Do you recall if any were more quiet than the others? Do you think me sitting closer to the projector by 2 or 3 feet is going to make all that much difference?

Also, do you think 100" screen is too big or about right for the viewing distance? And again, I can probably shrink the image so it only projects at 80" or another value?

One more question, in another post I was reading, you answered someone about coax cable connection. I currently only have a HDMI cable ran up to the ceiling, I HOPE I can find a receiver that has a coax input and I can output that to my projector...is this a correct assumption?

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Deads3t

Thanks, your posts are always helpful. I didn't know you could get an outboard scalar, very strange but probably a bit out of my budget since most my $ is tied up in the build itself.

You're most welcome!

In addition to scaling, the Radiance also has features like color gamut correction, support for anamorphic lenses, custom gamma settings, high quality HDMI switching, etc. So, you'd be getting more than just an outboard "upconverter" (these used to be called line doublers or quadruplers). It is a very versatile unit, but whether these features are useful to you depends on the needs of your system.

Just curious if you watch SD on your projector? Any chance for a screen shot of quality? I'm pretty tolerant when it comes to watching SD on a HDTV (I still own a vcr), but I really want it to be similar to my upconversion that happens from PS3 to my LCD 40". I realize as the size of the screen gets bigger, your quality will decrease.. Is there a way to scale the projecting image smaller when watching SD via remote?

Yes, I do watch some SD material on DirecTV, as well as some DVD's (although this is upconverted to 1080p by my DVD player). I'll try to get you some screen shots for comparison. I had actually promised Crackinhedz that I would do this a while back, so I'll try to post some soon.

Some projectors do have H- and V- scaling in their menus that you might be able to save in a user profile so you could just switch over to a smaller image using the remote. You'd have to check your specific PJ. Otherwise, the most surefire way of doing it is just zooming the picture smaller on your screen using your projector's lens.

Thanks, I'll look at these. Do you recall if any were more quiet than the others? Do you think me sitting closer to the projector by 2 or 3 feet is going to make all that much difference?

From what I've heard, the new JVCs are VERY quiet. Most people who looked at it at CEDIA couldn't hear it unless they put their ear a couple of inches from the exhaust. Definitely worth a look/listen.

I sit about 3 feet under and 3 feet in front of my projector, and I can hear it if I listen for it during quiet passages; but overall, its unobtrusive (to me at least)

Also, do you think 100" screen is too big or about right for the viewing distance? And again, I can probably shrink the image so it only projects at 80" or another value?

If you are sitting at 11' from a 100" diagonal screen, that will be 2.69 screen heights, which is within the recommended 2-3 screen heights for viewing; so I don't think it will be too big. In fact, you may want to consider sitting closer or going with a larger screen to get closer to 2 screen heights. Once you see a bigger screen, most people want to go even bigger. There are very few times when I've heard anyone complain that their screen choice was too big.

I sit 10' from a 10' wide scope screen (2.3x screen height, 1x screen width) and I could still sit closer and maintain comfortable viewing. I think Deci likes to watch his scope material quite close as well (I think he mentioned something like 1.6 screen heights).

Try it-- I suspect that you will enjoy the immersiveness of an image that fills more of your horizontal field of view.

One more question, in another post I was reading, you answered someone about coax cable connection. I currently only have a HDMI cable ran up to the ceiling, I HOPE I can find a receiver that has a coax input and I can output that to my projector...is this a correct assumption?

What are you getting through your coax connector? OTA channels? DBS (satellite feed)? Cable TV?

No matter what you use, you will need an OTA tuner or a Sat/Cable receiver that can either output via HDMI or Component to your projector. There are a variety of these available, so I think you'll be fine no matter what your source is.

Always run more cable to your projector than you think you need. It's better to have it and not need it later, than need it and have to try to fish it through your finished drywall later. I ran HDMI, Component, S-video, and IR repeater "mice" to my projector.

[Deadset]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

You're most welcome!

In addition to scaling, the Radiance also has features like color gamut correction, support for anamorphic lenses, custom gamma settings, high quality HDMI switching, etc. So, you'd be getting more than just an outboard "upconverter" (these used to be called line doublers or quadruplers). It is a very versatile unit, but whether these features are useful to you depends on the needs of your system.

It's good to know, if I add these features down the line, do they connection inline from my amp ---> scaler ---> projector? How much planning should I do now for these?

Yes, I do watch some SD material on DirecTV, as well as some DVD's (although this is upconverted to 1080p by my DVD player). I'll try to get you some screen shots for comparison. I had actually promised Crackinhedz that I would do this a while back, so I'll try to post some soon.

Some projectors do have H- and V- scaling in their menus that you might be able to save in a user profile so you could just switch over to a smaller image using the remote. You'd have to check your specific PJ. Otherwise, the most surefire way of doing it is just zooming the picture smaller on your screen using your projector's lens.

All of my SD (DVD's) will be played through my PS3 for sure, or another upscaled player. With that said, I hope I don't have to worry about artifacting or screen door with SD.

As for the saving the profiles, I have read that some projectors allow you to save settings, such as the Sanyo Z2000 and Panny AE2000U, so that should save me some headaches with always adjusting down the screen size if need be for SD. I plan on using a standard 16:9 screen, as 1) I don't mind the black bars for 2:40 and 2) I have plenty of SD DVD's that I plan on watching. Plus this is going to be used for TV as well.

From what I've heard, the new JVCs are VERY quiet. Most people who looked at it at CEDIA couldn't hear it unless they put their ear a couple of inches from the exhaust. Definitely worth a look/listen.

I sit about 3 feet under and 3 feet in front of my projector, and I can hear it if I listen for it during quiet passages; but overall, its unobtrusive (to me at least)

Good to hear, I'll check up on the JVC, but they may be out of my price range. I've been looking at dB ratings of some of the more popular 1080p projectors, and the panny and sanyo are both rated fairly quite, while the epson 1080p home projector was quoted as being louder than the competition.

If you are sitting at 11' from a 100" diagonal screen, that will be 2.69 screen heights, which is within the recommended 2-3 screen heights for viewing; so I don't think it will be too big. In fact, you may want to consider sitting closer or going with a larger screen to get closer to 2 screen heights. Once you see a bigger screen, most people want to go even bigger. There are very few times when I've heard anyone complain that their screen choice was too big.

I sit 10' from a 10' wide scope screen (2.3x screen height, 1x screen width) and I could still sit closer and maintain comfortable viewing. I think Deci likes to watch his scope material quite close as well (I think he mentioned something like 1.6 screen heights).

Try it-- I suspect that you will enjoy the immersiveness of an image that fills more of your horizontal field of view.

I may even opt to build and mount a 120" screen and see how it looks. Like you said, I can always just use the 100" for certain situations.

What are you getting through your coax connector? OTA channels? DBS (satellite feed)? Cable TV?

No matter what you use, you will need an OTA tuner or a Sat/Cable receiver that can either output via HDMI or Component to your projector. There are a variety of these available, so I think you'll be fine no matter what your source is.

Always run more cable to your projector than you think you need. It's better to have it and not need it later, than need it and have to try to fish it through your finished drywall later. I ran HDMI, Component, S-video, and IR repeater "mice" to my projector.

I'll be getting a box down there, so I should be ok. What do you think you'll need for your component and s-video runs? Just curious.

I've also noticed many newer projectors are offering 2 or 3 HDMI ports, should I run more than 1 HDMI 1.3 cable up there? What would I use that 2nd one for?

Another quick question, I plan on connecting my PC to it as well, I should be able to do this with a DVI ----> HDMI -----> into my amp -----> out to the projector right?

Is there an advantage of running a 15 pin HD VGA cable?

Also, I was reading a review on the Sanyo at projectorcentral.com and found this statement:

Sanyo has routinely built home theater projectors with a 2.0x zoom lens, which is about as long a zoom range as we find on this class of product. This zoom range let's you put the projector anywhere from 10 to 20 feet from the screen if you want an image size of 100" diagonal. One word of caution in planning your installation-using the telephoto end of a zoom lens reduces light output no matter which projector you use. Light output is always at its maximum with the lens in its widest angle configuration (shortest throw distance for any given screen size). In the case of the Z2000, you lose about 38% of the total lumen potential of the projector by moving the projector back and using the longest telephoto setting. That light loss is about normal for a zoom lens of 2.0x range.

How concerned should I be if I plan on using the zoom to offset my mounting distance of approx 12' w/ a screen size of max 120" ? Will that put me at the edge of the zoom range? Should I be concerned with the loss of 38% lumens? Can that be offset by a high screen gain (even if I build it myself)?

Sorry for all the questions

[Tony Stark]

Deadset, Nice basement and look forward til it is finished

Keep up good job!

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Deads3t

It's good to know, if I add these features down the line, do they connection inline from my amp ---> scaler ---> projector? How much planning should I do now for these?

If you get an outboard scalar, you could wire it that way, but I would probably take the amp out of the equation to minimize any excess signal degradation/processing. So source --->scalar ---> projector

All of my SD (DVD's) will be played through my PS3 for sure, or another upscaled player. With that said, I hope I don't have to worry about artifacting or screen door with SD.

The PS3 is a decent upscaler, so I don't think you will have a problem-- the image will look soft compared to BD, but upscaled DVD is tolerable.

I may even opt to build and mount a 120" screen and see how it looks. Like you said, I can always just use the 100" for certain situations.

Good plan.

I'll be getting a box down there, so I should be ok. What do you think you'll need for your component and s-video runs? Just curious.

I use my s-video run for my LaserDisc player. I have like 300 of them, and just hate to part with them, particularly since most of them are not worth much. Some of them are just movies I don't feel are good enough to "double dip" on, and a couple are not available on DVD or BD (Disney's Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin).

I use component for the on-screen setup menus for my pre-processor (Lexicon MC-12).

I've also noticed many newer projectors are offering 2 or 3 HDMI ports, should I run more than 1 HDMI 1.3 cable up there? What would I use that 2nd one for?

Mine has two, but I just ran one HDMI cable to it as I do all the switching with an outboard switch. If you have a ton of sources (more than the average switch can handle), then the second input could come in handy I guess...

Another quick question, I plan on connecting my PC to it as well, I should be able to do this with a DVI ----> HDMI -----> into my amp -----> out to the projector right?

Yup, that should work. Or, get a video card that has HDMI output.

Is there an advantage of running a 15 pin HD VGA cable?

I suppose that would make your system more compatible with a broader range of video cards, but most of the modern ones use DVI now, and there are plenty of DVI ---> HDMI cables/adapters.

How concerned should I be if I plan on using the zoom to offset my mounting distance of approx 12' w/ a screen size of max 120" ? Will that put me at the edge of the zoom range? Should I be concerned with the loss of 38% lumens? Can that be offset by a high screen gain (even if I build it myself)?

In terms of throws,
Max throw distance on a projector (longest focal length of the telephoto lens) = least lumens but maximum contrast
Min throw distance on a projector (shortest focal length of the telephoto lens)= max lumens but minimum contrast

I presume you mean a 120" diagonal screen, so your screen width would be 105" and your throw ratio is ~1.37. Using the Sanyo as an example (Zoom 1-2x), this is at the shortest end of the throw range (1.4-2.8) which is minimally zoomed (= shortest focal length of the lens). You would actually be the "bright end" of the zoom lens with your setup. If you have a flexible setup in regards to mounting positions, you can choose which is more important to you: lumens or contrast. The installers I spoke with recommended a throw ratio of around 2 or so to be in the better contrast range (better image quality) of most projectors. But your projector, room, and the needs of your setup will dictate some of this.

Sorry for all the questions

No worries!

[Deadset]

Thanks Brain Sturgeon for your replies. This should help me narrow down the choices come Dec 08/Jan 09 when I buy one.

Update!

I finished hanging all the drywall and the finisher is in!!! I got 3 quotes and went with the $2k one, even. I talked him down to 2k, he was at 2600. Total square foot of hanging sheetrock is approx. 5000 sqft.

I'll post pictures soon of the update. It's good to see the taping on the seems. Can't wait till I can paint!

Stay tuned!

[Beta Man]

$2k for all of that finishing!!!! I can mud drywall pretty well, but for $2k that's a no brainer!!!! They knock it out (and take care of the dust) so much faster/better, you'll be happy with the professional job, that's for sure!!!

[Deadset]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

$2k for all of that finishing!!!! I can mud drywall pretty well, but for $2k that's a no brainer!!!! They knock it out (and take care of the dust) so much faster/better, you'll be happy with the professional job, that's for sure!!!

Yeah, it was quite the bargain, I thank the housing market. I'm really glad I'm hiring this part done as it's very time consuming and it's also an art, something I don't mind learning, but not on my basement.

View from the 4th bedroom

View of the TV room and Rec Room

View of the Rec room, standing in the TV (it's really just 1 big room)

View of the projection wall


I have about 2 feet of the HDMI cable looped up in there, so when I install the projector, I'll just pull out the amount I need.

Next up is finishing the taping and start installing the bullnose and corner bead.

[Brain Sturgeon]

Verry Niice!

Keep those updates coming. Just remember-- projector and screen go up last, otherwise you might find yourself with some unexpected "delays" because of some mandatory "screenings" to make sure everything is working okay.

Although, you may want to check your cables just to be sure they are in good working order. They're going to be easier to replace now before you do any more finish work.

[Deadset]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

Verry Niice!

Keep those updates coming. Just remember-- projector and screen go up last, otherwise you might find yourself with some unexpected "delays" because of some mandatory "screenings" to make sure everything is working okay.

Although, you may want to check your cables just to be sure they are in good working order. They're going to be easier to replace now before you do any more finish work.

Thanks! It's coming along, today is the last day of the contractors. They have everything mudded and tapped. Now they will sand and blow on the knockdown texture to match the stairs and hallway. Today we're going to pick out the paint colors. I'll upload some pics probably this weekend of the new textured walls.

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by Deads3t

Thanks! It's coming along, today is the last day of the contractors. They have everything mudded and tapped. Now they will sand and blow on the knockdown texture to match the stairs and hallway. Today we're going to pick out the paint colors. I'll upload some pics probably this weekend of the new textured walls.

GREAT!!!! Once paint starts flying, you'll really start to see the light at the end of the tunnel (or will it be the dark abyss in the cave that you're seeking )


What colors are you going with?

[Deadset]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

GREAT!!!! Once paint starts flying, you'll really start to see the light at the end of the tunnel (or will it be the dark abyss in the cave that you're seeking )


What colors are you going with?

Can't wait to get my mancave complete! It's been a long year with alot of work.

My wife and I are going to lowes to pick out the colors tonight, whoohoo big friday night plan. We already have the cabinets picked out, just looking for something to match those, that looks good and something not too dark b/c it's a basement. I'll probably keep the ceiling off white and go with a light colored wall. I hope that won't have an adverse affect on my projector viewing

[Beta Man]

You want DARK AND FLAT...... I know compromises need to be made if the room is used for other things besides a theater though.......

I'd recommend using a Flat paint regardless of the color, but also trying to find at least a semi-dark color like Taupe etc..... My wife was against all black, that's why I did the Brown (and she actually likes it) Maybe go with a dark maroon, etc.... but I'd at least try to make the ceiling Khaki, or darker if possible......