Blu-rays Looking Generally Indistinguishable From DVDs On SXRD Screen...

[Hillside Trece]

Hello All.

Now, before you throw the fire, brimstone and book at me for saying this -- I read the replies to the member that started a similar thread in this section some time back about how Blu-rays look like shit on his Sony and how that spiraled downward quickly into a pissing contest -- please do not let that happen here, and please don't be so quick to be harsh with comments that are largely unnecessary; the intention of this thread is not to lead anyone to anger-fueled rages about how an "OP" doesn't understand the technology being discussed, or how he "should have known that rear projection sets don't look a certain way before he bought one," so please, let's just discuss this with civil replies and viewpoints, alright? Thank you...

I noticed this from nearly the day I took delivery of my Sony KDS-50A2020 SXRD projection set, but I always felt as if the picture quality just wasn't that "good" -- I later learned, like many who have seen a good LCD in action and commented in this forum, that this Sony model didn't have any kind of "MotionFlow" or frame interpolation features which, as a side effect, make film sources look like video (that surreal, float-off-the-screen soap opera look which I happen to love on Blu-rays)...and that it seemed I needed to buy an LCD that offered a 120Hz refresh feature in order to get that video-like look. In comparison, I have found that Blu-rays on my SXRD look kind of "lifeless" and flat -- but I have also come to learn and understand that these sets have very "film-like" looks to them, and that's why they appear so different from LCDs.

Don't get me wrong -- good BD transfers exhibit great detail and clarity on this set, but high definition films in general just don't pop off the screen with that nearly "3D" quality you see on displays with interpolation technology. Thus, I am finding, even as we are running our first replacement lamp now on our Wega SXRD, that most Blu-rays just do not look much different from DVDs on this set. This could very well be our seating distance (which is way too far from recommended specs but there's nothing I can do about this), our settings or the fact that these projection TVs were really designed to deliver a film-like experience with BDs, and that's what we're seeing although the final product just isn't that satisfying to me, appearing a bit flat for high definition.

I would just like to get everyone's thoughts on this matter; is it somewhat "normal" for Blu-rays to look similar to DVDs in terms of overall appearance on rear projection sets like the SXRD? Am I expecting too much from the projection technology, even though it's a 1080p set?

Any insight on this subject matter is welcome.

[Darthvong]

I own a 5 year old DLP RPTV that's 1080i. Yes I said 1080i. LOL
I can tell you on my set I can see a clear difference between BD and DVD. My BD player is a PS3.
When I got the TV I calibrated it using an AVIA home theater dvd and that made a huge difference. The images on BD do pop from the screen.

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by Darthvong

I own a 5 year old DLP RPTV that's 1080i. Yes I said 1080i. LOL
I can tell you on my set I can see a clear difference between BD and DVD. My BD player is a PS3.
When I got the TV I calibrated it using an AVIA home theater dvd and that made a huge difference. The images on BD do pop from the screen.

Thanks for the reply, Darth...

That's interesting about your five year old DLP -- I am experiencing the opposite, and that's with a 1080p SXRD set. I have adjusted the settings using multiple discs, so I'm not just running the set in factory defaults, and I am connected 100 percent HDMI, with a pure 1080p signal coming out of my OPPO BD player, which is considered one of the best decks on the market.

Blu-rays do "pop" with detail on some BDs -- it's just that for the most part, I can't tell the difference between a Blu-ray and a well-mastered upconverted DVD. Perhaps that's a testament to my Blu-ray player, the OPPO, which is said to upconvert VERY well through its Anchor Bay processor, but I just don't notice that much of a difference between DVD and BD on this set.

I can recall someone in the thread I mentioned (in this forum, a number of threads down, regarding BDs looking "horrible" on his rear pro) saying something about a friend of his being very disappointed with the 60" rear projection he bought especially compared with this member's Samsung LCD, so I can't be the only one who feels this way about projection technology and the way Blu-rays look on them...

[Darthvong]

Oh I don't doubt that an LCD or plasma do look better than most RPTVs. At the time I was buying mine most LCD/plasma were out of my price range for the size I wanted (50inch). They were around the 2k price range if I remember correctly.
I did a lot of research into RPTVs and finally found one within my price and with a quality picture. When it was on display next to other RPTVs you could clearly see a difference in PQ.
Don't get me wrong though. At the time if I had more cash I would've gone with a plasma and plan on upgrading in the near future.

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by Darthvong

Oh I don't doubt that an LCD or plasma do look better than most RPTVs. At the time I was buying mine most LCD/plasma were out of my price range for the size I wanted (50inch). They were around the 2k price range if I remember correctly.
I did a lot of research into RPTVs and finally found one within my price and with a quality picture. When it was on display next to other RPTVs you could clearly see a difference in PQ.
Don't get me wrong though. At the time if I had more cash I would've gone with a plasma and plan on upgrading in the near future.

And therein lies the biggest draw of the RPTV sets -- the price per inches factor.

I, too, wouldn't have been able to afford a 50" LCD at the time we bought our SXRD.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

And therein lies the biggest draw of the RPTV sets -- the price per inches factor.

I, too, wouldn't have been able to afford a 50" LCD at the time we bought our SXRD.

Same here, so instead I opted for a smaller screen Plasma (42"). I've always found the RPTV sets to be rather soft with little or no pop.

[Ruben Rybnik]

I have a nine year old 1080i rear projection set. I have found there to be a huge difference in picture quality between blu ray and dvd. I think due to the fact the tv is not as nice as the newer models the difference is even greater. My newer LCD is only 40" but dvds look much better in comparison to my 50: rear projection.
Hoping to convince my wife that upgrading would be hugely beneficial sometime this year.

[drago3451]

I believe you answered your own question within your question. You stated that the viewing distance you are using is way beyond the acceptable range. I am sure one of the posters will throw the chart that shows distance vs. resolution. If you are seated far enough away your eyes will not see the difference between 1080i/p 720p or lower. I do not think a 120, 240 refresh rate will make a difference if you stay the same distance with the same size.

Solution, get a bigger TV or a projector to really take advantage of the increased clarity of Blu-ray…..

As a side note I have a 60” Sony SXRD rear projection set that looks great with blu, but again I am seated within the optimal range and can see a huge difference between blu, DVD and cable/satellite.

[GAWD]

I have a calibrated 50" SXRD and it looks beautiful. I wouldn't put it up against a newer LCD or Plasma but you can easily see it's a HD TV. No it doesn't have the pop that I've seen on the latest 55" Samsung a buddy got but I paid it under 1k almost 4 years ago. There was nothing in the 1080p 50" LCD/Plasma in that ballpark.

I love the picture it produces. I'm seated at the THX recommended viewing distance.

[Canada]

I had a 34" 1080i CRT TV and even then I noticed a difference between Blu ray and DVD.

[Beta Man]

Here's an article that is quite relevant to the topic:

http://www.tribulusterrestrisextract.com/eyesight.html

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by John72953

Same here, so instead I opted for a smaller screen Plasma (42"). I've always found the RPTV sets to be rather soft with little or no pop.

Thanks for your thoughts, John; indeed, I am experiencing the "soft and no pop" effect...

At least I'm not the only one...

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by Ruben Rybnik

I have a nine year old 1080i rear projection set. I have found there to be a huge difference in picture quality between blu ray and dvd.

Interesting...I am finding the opposite on my three-year-old SXRD...

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by drago3451

I believe you answered your own question within your question. You stated that the viewing distance you are using is way beyond the acceptable range. I am sure one of the posters will throw the chart that shows distance vs. resolution. If you are seated far enough away your eyes will not see the difference between 1080i/p 720p or lower. I do not think a 120, 240 refresh rate will make a difference if you stay the same distance with the same size.

I merely pointed this out to simply state that I realize our seating distance isn't anywhere near ideal; if I inadvertedly answered my own question by doing so, it was unintentional, yet remains a vital subject for debate and discussion: I have seen all the charts that discuss distance vs. screen size and I'm well aware of the problem with my particular room. Interestingly enough, I have found that it really depends on which chart you are looking at and who drew it up -- in other words, Crutchfield has a "size/seating" chart for TVs, and according to their formula, I'm well within the correct range (I believe they claimed that for screen sizes 40" and larger, you need to be at at least 10 feet away -- we're 13 feet with a 50")...compared to the charts I've seen on this and other forums, that measurement is way off.

Still -- there is definitely something to be said about the fact that I'm not seeing differences between Blu-rays and DVDs on my rear projection set, but there are a few factors to consider here: First, when we were in our last apartment, which we bought this 50" for, we were at a much smaller seating distance, and I still couldn't really tell the difference between a good upscaled DVD and Blu-ray. I chalked this up to rear projection technology. Also, let's take a look at all the people who have contributed in this and other threads, such as John above, who agree that projection televisions simply deliver a flat, lifeless image especially compared to LCDs and plasmas -- and that's with 1080p material. So others are finding similar things with regard to a projection display's abilities.

Solution, get a bigger TV or a projector to really take advantage of the increased clarity of Blu-ray…..

I discussed this exhaustively with the entire forum in a separate thread I made regarding upgrading to a larger TV -- the wall unit we have for our room cannot handle more than maybe a 55" or so, and that would be pushing it...we are not buying another wall unit to house a much larger TV, so we need to work within these dimensions. I also cannot afford a motorized front projection/screen project, which is the way I would want it for our room, so that's out.

Also -- I realize you mentioned "to really take advantage of the increased clarity of Blu-ray..." but I've been advised that even at my seating distance, I can still enjoy the clarity that high definition affords, if not the ultimate eye-popping detail that say a good LCD would provide; to be honest, the films I watch are far from unclear or not colorful -- they just don't look like high definition on my set, if that makes any sense. There's none of that ridiculously dramatic "jump off the screen" look that you want with high def film playback...

So, right now, I am stuck with this 50" set and if we upgrade, the most we could fit in that area would be a 55 or so (I thought we could get a 58 in there but we can't)...given this, do you think the jump to 55 inches would yield any impact benefits?

As a side note I have a 60” Sony SXRD rear projection set that looks great with blu, but again I am seated within the optimal range and can see a huge difference between blu, DVD and cable/satellite.

Well, I envy you -- unfortunately, I simply cannot do it in our room.

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by GAWD

I have a calibrated 50" SXRD and it looks beautiful. I wouldn't put it up against a newer LCD or Plasma but you can easily see it's a HD TV. No it doesn't have the pop that I've seen on the latest 55" Samsung a buddy got but I paid it under 1k almost 4 years ago. There was nothing in the 1080p 50" LCD/Plasma in that ballpark.

I love the picture it produces. I'm seated at the THX recommended viewing distance.

I am happy you enjoy your SXRD -- indeed, I am not saying that my set does not deliver beautiful images on good Blu-rays, because it does...I am merely saying that Blu-ray films seem to appear to look just like a very well mastered upconverted DVD does on this particular screen (a KDS-50A2020 SXRD). Colors are solid and vivid, and the images look crisp, it's just that I keep thinking that this is what a good DVD should look like, too...as if I am missing something from high definition media that should be there.

I think, ultimately, what I am longing for is that "MotionFlow" feature the Sonys have, in which 1080p material can be made to manipulate film sources to look like video; the side effect of the frame interpolation. To me, films on my SXRD just look flat and soft -- yes, they're clear and colorful, but they DON'T look like Blu-rays played back on LED LCDs or something along those lines...

BTW, you said your SXRD is calibrated -- are you in Custom mode? Can you give me some of your settings?

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Here's an article that is quite relevant to the topic:

http://www.tribulusterrestrisextract.com/eyesight.html

Very funny, Beta...

My eyesight isn't bad. In fact, the last time I had it checked, it was a smidgen off 20/20...

[FREYMAX 3D]

Well, I was just in the local UE store the other day, and they had one of those new Mitsu Laser DLP RPTV's setup in their demo room. I was talking with one of the sales reps about other things, and he eventually drug me into the room to see the TV, and was gushing "look how big and how great this looks!" Well I'm sorry, I'm not sure what all the hubub about the new technology is; yeah, it was a big 75" TV, but still looked very much like a RPTV to my eyes, with that same "soft, non-pop look", and poor off-angle viewing - it still has that bright "sweet spot" directly in front of it that drops off quickly in brightness as your seating moves off-center or you stand up. ugh. I see no reason why someone would really WANT an RPTV, except perhaps, as a previous poster said, for their advantage in $$ per inches.

But then, to me that isn't necessarily the best bargain either. I went with a front projector system for exactly the SAME reason - I bought a 1080p DLP projector for under $1,000, and a 120" motorized screen for less than $200, and the resulting picture pretty much blows the doors off a DLP RPTV, can be viewed at any angle, and still has almost three times the screen real estate of that "huge" $6,000 75" Laser DLP... at one fifth of the cost (not to even mention the cost of a substantial piece of furniture to sit the thing on). So what's really the bargain? If you got room for a 75" RPTV, surely you can make room for a front projector system with an even larger screen and much better overall performance?

Guess I'll just never get the whole concept of RPTV...

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by FreyTheater

Well, I was just in the local UE store the other day, and they had one of those new Mitsu Laser DLP RPTV's setup in their demo room. I was talking with one of the sales reps about other things, and he eventually drug me into the room to see the TV, and was gushing "look how big and how great this looks!" Well I'm sorry, I'm not sure what all the hubub about the new technology is; yeah, it was a big 75" TV, but still looked very much like a RPTV to my eyes, with that same "soft, non-pop look", and poor off-angle viewing - it still has that bright "sweet spot" directly in front of it that drops off quickly in brightness as your seating moves off-center or you stand up. ugh. I see no reason why someone would really WANT an RPTV, except perhaps, as a previous poster said, for their advantage in $$ per inches.

But then, to me that isn't necessarily the best bargain either. I went with a front projector system for exactly the SAME reason - I bought a 1080p DLP projector for under $1,000, and a 120" motorized screen for less than $200, and the resulting picture pretty much blows the doors off a DLP RPTV, can be viewed at any angle, and still has almost three times the screen real estate of that "huge" $6,000 75" Laser DLP... at one fifth of the cost (not to even mention the cost of a substantial piece of furniture to sit the thing on). So what's really the bargain? If you got room for a 75" RPTV, surely you can make room for a front projector system with an even larger screen and much better overall performance?

Guess I'll just never get the whole concept of RPTV...

Hey Frey,

Thanks so much for reporting your findings here; indeed, it seems there is yet another believer in "RPTVs look soft, even with high def material..." As I said, Blu-rays are sharp and colorful on my set -- but they don't "float off the screen" like I have seen BDs do on LCDs and some plasmas.

As for the allure of RPTVs, well, manufacturers like Sony and Mitsubishi originally marketed them as like the "TV substitute" for the "complexities" of a front projection system -- those who wanted the next best thing to, say, a projector and screen, but wanted the structure of a TV set that they were used to.

The big screen RPTVs were affordable back when I got my SXRD -- and that was a big appeal; while they didn't offer that "float off the screen" surreal look the LCDs did when set up certain ways, there was a market for people like me who wanted a 50 incher or bigger but couldn't afford this size in a technology other than rear projection.

As I said, my biggest ***** with my SXRD is that even the best looking Blu-rays on the U.S. Region 1 market do not look very distinguishable from really good DVD transfers upscaled on my OPPO BD player -- both DVDs and BDs exhibit the same kind of softish, film-like look. Some videophiles gush over this look, and have called the Wega and Bravia RPTVs the best displays available when they were out because of these film-like images, but to me, that isn't what watching a good Blu-ray is all about.

[GAWD]

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

BTW, you said your SXRD is calibrated -- are you in Custom mode? Can you give me some of your settings?

I'll try to get those for you. BTW I'm sitting 5.5-6ft away from the set.

[FREYMAX 3D]

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

Hey Frey,

Thanks so much for reporting your findings here; indeed, it seems there is yet another believer in "RPTVs look soft, even with high def material..." As I said, Blu-rays are sharp and colorful on my set -- but they don't "float off the screen" like I have seen BDs do on LCDs and some plasmas.

Yes, I also very much love that "popping", layered color look that you get with LCD and Plasma TVs, especially with animated features; and I am also NOT a fan of purposely-added film grain to blu-ray movies to make them look more like film. I say let them pop as well!

I will admit though, that even with front projection onto a screen, you do not get that layered color look as you do with blu-ray on a TV, but it definitely still "pops"... and I'm happy to trade off some of that "pop" just to have a huge screen over 100". Size does matter, lol.